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 Post subject: Rear limiting straps
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:10 pm 
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Has anyone limited there downward travel on the rear suspension to make the car understeer less?

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 Post subject: Re: Rear limiting straps
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:34 am 
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Metropwr wrote:
Has anyone limited there downward travel on the rear suspension to make the car understeer less?


This is very good post....there are many track/circuit racers here.
I'm sure someone will share this info :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:42 am 
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I have thought about doing it, but never gotten around to it.

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 Post subject: limiting straps
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Putting limiting straps on your suspension for means off cornering will not help in a good way.

If your car has limiting straps, and actually uses them, your suspension spring rate will go to infinity, and will not allow any more weight transfer. Your car will not be able to corner any faster, and if a bump or tighter turn or even if you have to change position on the track <due to other car or ... > your car would be very undrivable. Ie possiably slap oversteer instantly.

Limiting straps have their place. Off road vehicles, rally type cars in which the car comes off the ground and unloads the suspension completely.

Locate the proper springs to make your car go a steady state corner at the fastest possiable speed. Like a skid pad.
Sway bars should be sized to stop transitional "sway" or body roll. Like a slalom course.

Front wheel drive Auto X cars typically have rear sway bars with a higher stiffness then a road race car.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:53 pm 
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How does the spring rate go to infinite? There is still the same compression travel and can be set up for a little extension travel.

I put the straps on my rear suspension the other day. I allowed for 3/8" extension or so at 3/4 tank of fuel. The car handles alot better now especially in bumpy corners where the rear end of the car used to un-weight and transfer to the front. Now it just is a point and shoot type of ride.

There is alot less brake dive and my cornering speeds are way up. After I put them on I came into a series of turns way to hot and took the inside lines just in case and to my suprise it stuck.

When I drive I tend not to jump off the throttle very quickly. Even so wouldn't the straps allow for less weight shift to the front and in turn create less snap oversteer?

My weight transfer used to be pretty bad before, when braking, decelerating.

I did strap the rear end and strapped it down pretty tight. All I can say is the car feels so much more stable all around then it ever has.

Murr have you put straps on a car before? There was a guy here a couple of years ago that raced with no front sway bar and rear limiting straps. That was his claim to fame.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:52 am 
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I am extremely happy to hear the positive reviews on the rear straps. Can you please give some pics of the setup on car?

cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:48 pm 
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A limiting strap will perform exactly the same as a stiff swaybar with soft end links. ADDCO used to sell end links with springs in them so they would be soft on easy corners and hard on hard corners.

However the ADDCO is a mostly linear progression while a strap is a sudden transition.

But a strap will also cause a sudden limit when you go over a hill or anything that unloads both sides of the rear suspension at the same time.

Maybe your driving style is compatible with those sudden transitions but I would prefer something that acts the same all the time.

ed


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:51 pm 
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The nylon straps do seem to have some stretch to them. I doesn't feel all of the sudden.

Wouldn't a strapped rear act the same everytime also? My car is a whole lot more stable now than it ever has been.

I did this as an experiment and it seems to work great.

I mounted the upper part to the piece of steel in the wheel tuns that the strut is located in. The lower mount is located at the futhest out I could go on the back of the control arm.

I have only the picture of the top mount. If you need I can take on of the lower also. I may need to plate the holes, I have a feeling they will elongate over time. The straps I got are Pro Comp 11" from Four Wheel Parts.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:34 am 
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Wow, for once, I disagree with Liam....

Limiting straps, for sure, are a bandaid fix for a crappy suspension setup... which is exactly what I have. Using a limiting strap is exactly the same as installing struts with less travel. For those of us with non-adjustable suspension (ie, me), the strap allows you to up the springrate [*edit* ok, you don't really up the rate, you up the preload] on the car during static situations (which affects the way the car handles under transitions). Basically it allows you to stiffen the preload on the suspension (which is why I would do it).

Provided you handle the limiting straps correctly (ie, not just the rear, or in combination with better front setup), you're handling characteristics can be quite neutral.

Limiting straps are very popular with IT racers... and have shown to be a pretty good addition. Of course, it all depends on what you are trying to achieve.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:29 am 
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My suspension sucks ass in my opinion. The atraps are just an experiment.

$35 straps or, Koni stuts $300-400, better springs $200-300, Coil overs $1500+, rear sway bar custom made for MKIV $200+, custom made urethane bushings $250+, bronz or aluminum bushings $300+, camber/caster plates $300+.

I went with the $40 dollar option for now. Most of this other stuff is on it's way in the future.

I get new tires today and will put in my Kirkey road racing seat which I have to say is the shit. It just hug me right in from thighs to shoulders. I am too big for the GTI and most other after market seats.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:51 am 
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Wouldn't this be virtually the same as using the lowering clamps to clamp two of the coils together?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:06 am 
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It is a little like that. I have very little extension travel beyond static ride height.

I ran the car around some corners and freeway interchange tonight and I have to say that it works amazing. I can maintain a nice slip angle throughout the turn. I have even came in a little fast on a few turns, went in sliding neutral as the car decelerated it went towards oversteer.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Todaty on an empty freeway on ramp I came into the turn and jumped off the throttle really fast to trty and coax the snap oversteer and it definitely spun the ass around out of control. I managed to correct fast enough and get it back.

Later I took a ramp fast and stayed on the throttle and breathed off the throtte and the ass end came around very nicely.

The car doesn't like very abrupt movements and I can't imagine why someone would jump off the skinny mid turn anyways.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:31 pm 
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Metropwr wrote:
I can't imagine why someone would jump off the skinny mid turn anyways.


Because the guy in front of you - blew a tire & swerved - suddenly backed off the gas and his strapped down rear suspension caused him to spin out of control - insert whatever unexected freeway mishap you've witnessed here.

The point is sh!t happens and you don't need to be a part of it, if it does happen directly in front of you, can you make the required evasive manouver with those limits straps, or will you be just another statistic?

One night a friend of mine and I were driving up an on ramp and something flew across the hood, he braked and came to a stop - it turned out to be the body of a woman thrown out of an SUV that hit the curb & flipped - seems she & her husband has been on their way home from a bar-b-que, he'd had too much to drink, and they were argueing over it.

If you had been the car behind us (or even if you had been us), would you been able to stop safely?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:02 am 
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My car does have brakes you know. Even better ones are on the way. My car does stop much better now than it ever has because the weight does not shift forward as agressively causing the front tires to go beyond threshold as easy.

My car handles much better than it ever has. Abrupt manuvers are not a problem. It is stripped to the bone so it has a whole lot less weight to move and slow down. The car is very responsive.

If a guy in front of me blows a tire especially a front I don't think he will have control anyways.

I am sorry I don't understand what you are getting at. Don't modify your car? Every stock car on the road is abolutely safe regardless of the driver.

There are many other problems that are much worse than me running straps..

I don't see how me having straps will cause me to spin out of control anymore than another guy in any other car.

What I was describing was snap off oversteer commented on earlier in the thread. The brakes were not even used. It is a product of the tires being close to their threshold and an abrubt shift in weight upsetting the suspension balance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:15 am 
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I see you missed my point entirely - I was simply giving you a couple of reasons why "someone would jump off the skinny mid turn anyways"

No matter how good your brakes are - in that split second whan you see the guy infront of you do something unexpected - it doesn't matter what it is, maybe he blew a tire and lost control - your first reaction is going to be to lift off the gas - and that's where the strap limited rear end of your car will bite you.

By your own admission, backing off the gas in mid turn causes the rear end to snap free, "breath off" the throttle and it comes around.

What do you think will happen if you jump directly on the brake?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:13 am 
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I jumped off the throttle mid turn from 3/4 - full throttle at the limit of the tires. I don't think that is an everyday situation.

Normal driving the car will be fine to jump off from partial throttle to brake mid turn. If it comes down to it I've had to swerve around other cars to miss them.

If I had to shift from throttle to brake in an instant during a normal driving situation the car will actualy slow down quicker due to the lack of weight shifting from rear to front.

Breathing off the throttle permits for a controllable sitution. If you were to read the original post you commented on you would see that. If I was to jump off the throttle very quickly from 3/4- full throttle that is a different story.

I drive alot, in all kinds of situaions. For Christ's sake I live in the heart of L.A. where the idiots behind the wheel out number anything else and the traffic and cell phone use is probably the worse in the country. I have managed to stay away from any accidents that would be my fault.

I have been hit two times. The first I was making a left turn into a parking lot and an older lady drove right into the side of my car from the parking lot.

The second, I was driving on the freeway at around 75MPH and all of the sudden someone rear ended me going in excess of 100MPH. I broke my seat recline that time and almost blacked out. I managed to make it to the side of the road to find out the prick had taked off.

Both of these accidents were completely unavoidable. I tried to get out of the way on the first one, the second I didn't even see it coming.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:41 am 
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i have to agree with fordom here(as rare as it is :-P ) i have driven in L.A. to say it was an experience is an understatement. motorcycles driving between cars ON the dotted lines at any speed, traffic at a dead stop,while the carpool lane is wizzing by at 75 to 80 mph two feet from the stopped traffic with nothing but a white line separating the two. :shock: more than three hundered traffic related fatalitys a day in that town.
if jumping off the throttle in a turn, unloads the suspension and causes the rearend to want to come around, the same is going to happen when you try a panic stop,and swerve.
they may be the best idea since sliced bread for the track, but how often are you going max speed around corners in every day driving. heck , you would have the same snap oversteer if you hit a good bump in mid turn with the straps on the car.and if you were in a bad accident regardless of fault, the straps could be used against you.you still have stock steelies and tires,so what are you really gaining??

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:49 am 
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All those Metro drivers who haven't been 3/4 to full throttle, coming off of an onramp, onto the freeway, trying to merge and paying more attention to the traffic behind them, than the guy in front - raise your hands.

Just so you understand the point - you're creating a potentially unsafe condition that although you think will rarely occur, I feel actually happens on a daily basis.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:15 pm 
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I'm going to have to side with Metropwr. When you make these kinds of modifications the car will have a much sharper edge between control and kaos but the edge is also much higher.

I think I prefer a stiff swaybar to a strap but I can see that, properly set up, the strap can help a car's handling.

If you are driving at speeds that would be safe in a stock car, you will most likely be safer because you will be well under the limit of the modified car.

If you are driving at idiotic speed then... --> you are an idiot <-- and you will cause mayhem, death, and dismemberment.

If you setup the strap such that your car is unstable then... --> you are an idiot <-- and you will cause mayhem, death, and dismemberment.

ed


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:25 pm 
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Every one is telling me straps are bad. Have you done it? Bumps in a turn it stick to those much better than it ever has.

Maybe I shouldn't get a rear swaybar due to the fact it may cause oversteer and that is bad. I bet the car will handle very close to the same with a larger rear swaybar.

I already have almost 1000 miles on the car with the straps and have tested it pretty good. Panic stops are no problem even mid turn.

3/4- full throttle in my car is pretty fast. I can shake the front tires loose pretty easily.

The turn in question was a 25 MPH turn and I was going almost 55 MPH. I was testing the straps and the snap oversteer effect. Essentially I was messing around and testing the limits of my car. I had tested the brakes to full lockup a couple of days earlier to make sure the front still locks first.

Everyday I practice driving and honing my skills. So everyday I get a little better. The car will be on the track soon.

I can take a pic. of the ramp in question. It is a long sweeper almost 3/8 of a mile, single lane, merges into a seperate lane off the side of the freeway then onto the freeway. There was no one within 300 yards of me.

Fordem, I suggest you strap your car and don't be so ignorant. Maybe you will see what I am talking about instead of bashing on me on half assed theory alone. I know how to drive well and put over 30K miles on my car every year since I bought it.

In my opinion, any well handling front wheel drive should lift off oversteer. I definitely prefer that to severe understeer which every Metro/Swift starts out with.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:00 pm 
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Bro - you asked a question, I answered it - plain and simple - you just don't like the answer. :roll:

I'm not bashing on you, but if I wanted to, I would start by going through your posts and pointing out the inconsistencies.

Just so you are aware, the suspension was the first thing to be modified on my car, I'm no expert, and at the same time I'm no novice.

I will not strap my car, our roads are a lot different to yours, and so are our traffic patterns, I'll choose what's safe for me, in my environment.

If you're happy with your straps, hey - I'm happy for you.

Oh - I almost forgot - having a rear sway bar on does not cause the @ss end to come around when you "breathe off" the throttle, not even if you back right off in mid turn. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:22 pm 
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fordem wrote:
Oh - I almost forgot - having a rear sway bar on does not cause the @ss end to come around when you "breathe off" the throttle, not even if you back right off in mid turn. :wink:


I would think it would at the limits of the car. That's what everything I have read and seen would suggest. To counteract understeer a larger rear sway bar would be the first and best thing to do. Removing understeer moves your car to neutral or even slight oversteer. Puttimg a larger rear sway bar on my car would lean the balance to over steer.

I saw a video here from one of the Teamswift members showing his snap-oversteer. What would cause this then? He does not have straps.

The suspension was the first thing to be done on my car also. Until what I had no longer cut it. Now it is on to bigger and better things.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:17 am 
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i think the limiting straps are a great idea for keeping those rear springs from falling out, it's not uncommon to see a sprint/swift with a rear wheel in the air, or the whole car airborn, rear "lowered" springs are great candidates for an ejection in those situations ..
the effects of limiting straps are going to vary greatly depending on how much travel you allow and it's no different then having shorter struts installed.
i'd suggest trying them at a few different lengths/limitations to find a good balance between safety/stability and cornering performance ..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:44 pm 
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There are two things that cause snap oversteer on a balanced car, there are dozens of things that cause snap oversteer on an unbalanced car.

When a balanced car is cornering at the limit and it suddenly tries to slow down two things happen.

1 - The weight transfers forward unloading the rear wheels which will tend to oversteer. If the center of mass is behind the center of traction (rear engine) the vector sum of the center of mass against the center of traction will tend to oversteer the car.

2 - The speed of rotation will try to remain constant while the speed of the turn will slow down. This will also tend to favor oversteer.

So, any well balanced car that is traveling close to the edge of traction will tend to snap oversteer on deceleration in a corner.

A stock car is unbalanced and the factory favors understeer because that's safer for the average idiot.

A poorly modified car might favor oversteer to start with and might suddenly spin because the rear is dangerously close to losing traction even though the front might not be.

It is important to realize that it's almost impossible to feel that a car is close to losing traction. It is easy to feel when the car starts to get very close to losing traction but that can be quite a surprise on an unbalanced car.

ed


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