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 Post subject: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:47 am 
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I want some input of actual real world experience on these cars. My mk2 sedan needs new shocks and springs all around, I'm looking for suitable inserts to cut down costs, but I haven't found a straight answer on OIL vs GAS.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:50 pm 
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You need to be a little more specific as all shocks have oil in them, twin tube hydraulic, twin tube hydraulic with low pressure gas and mono tube high pressure gas are the main types, there are no inserts for the swift, they are sealed complete struts.

Very little choice, kby do a HP mono tube which is a very good budget shock and Koni make a twin tube hydraulic, Monroe used to make a HP monotube, not sure if they are still available, not a lot of choice.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:21 pm 
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I had no idea :mrgreen: usually it only says oil filled or gas charged, so I'll have to get more detailed descriptions :) as for the inserts, I knew there were non, but plenty made their own :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Location: near Burbank, Calif
"dattman" is correct in that all shocks (current design) have oil.
The addition of "gas" pressurizes the shock to reduce piston/valve cavitation during heavy use.
The "HP" shocks simply can take more pounding before cavitation occurs.

Normal highway use will not create any significant cavitation so why spend extra money
on something you probably won't be using?
Baja racers use "HP" shocks but also must have external oil coolers to keep oil temps down.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:33 am 
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Pres wrote:
Normal highway use will not create any significant cavitation so why spend extra money
on something you probably won't be using?

A high pressure monotube doesn't cost any more to produce than a twin tube hydraulic, they perform differently, a monotube having a single tube sheds heat better than a twin tube and the HP gas can add a little extra spring and stiffen things up, however they have more stiction, very few are adjustable and the extra 'spring' will raise ride height.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:22 am 
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Well maybe in California there are only good roads, but here in Lithuania even the city roads feel like they have a speed bump every 5 meters, plus there are lots of gravel roads and we use then a lot :wink: so I think I need a setup that can take a little more pounding :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:47 am 
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Then I would recommend KYB excel gas shocks, best bang for buck around.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:56 am 
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Maybe an air shock would be best for your environment. Adds ground clearance and stiffness when pumped up and with the addition of a remote adjuster in the cockpit can be adjusted on the fly. An addition to your options. I had this on an old Caprice I drove and it was a great setup.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:17 am 
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I was actually looking to lower it, but no more than an inch, I wanted coilovers, but even if I make a set myself, they're damn expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:31 am 
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With cut springs, which increases base stiffness, you still have a "base" ride height on the springs and shocks with the ability to raise and stiffen it on demand. I'd look closer at this option before settling on something but that's just me.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:03 pm 
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i like the kyb struts, too, but in your market you may have access to bilsteins.

i can't get bilsteins for a swift around here (i can get them for mack trucks, though.) i'd like to give those blue and yellow struts a trial. :wink:

the kyb warranty limits the acceptable drop on your suspension to 1.4" so be careful of your spring sizing.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:20 am 
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I have access to kyb, koni, monroe and bilsteins locally, konis probably being out of the question, since they're damn expensive, I have monroes on mine atm, but they're 10 years old so can't really say if they're any good and I found one shop who sell bilsteins for the swift. Have to check out the prices first though.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:13 am 
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G-sus wrote:
I have access to kyb, koni, monroe and bilsteins locally, konis probably being out of the question, since they're damn expensive, I have monroes on mine atm, but they're 10 years old so can't really say if they're any good and I found one shop who sell bilsteins for the swift. Have to check out the prices first though.


The valving on monroes is quite good, quality is a bit hit and miss, the Bisteins are nothing special according to some euro friends, similar to kyb and Monroe.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:37 am 
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Dattman wrote:
G-sus wrote:
I have access to kyb, koni, monroe and bilsteins locally, konis probably being out of the question, since they're damn expensive, I have monroes on mine atm, but they're 10 years old so can't really say if they're any good and I found one shop who sell bilsteins for the swift. Have to check out the prices first though.


The valving on monroes is quite good, quality is a bit hit and miss, the Bisteins are nothing special according to some euro friends, similar to kyb and Monroe.


Well then if there's no significant difference in performance, I will probably go with the cheaper gas charged ones, probably kyb or monroe :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:34 pm 
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G-sus wrote:
I have access to kyb, koni, monroe and bilsteins locally, konis probably being out of the question, since they're damn expensive, I have monroes on mine atm, but they're 10 years old so can't really say if they're any good and I found one shop who sell bilsteins for the swift. Have to check out the prices first though.


If you think Koni's are expensive, wait till you see the price on Bilstein's.

This thread is the very first time I have ever heard anyone refer to Bilstein as "nothing special". Bilstein is regarded in rally and circuit circles as one of the top 5 best shock producers in the world. I refer anyone to Dennis Heath of FarNorth Racing, and to read his articles on suspension tuning.

I believe the other top names were Penski, Ohlins and a couple more I can't recall.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:20 pm 
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at the moment I can't even afford Konis so I probably won't even be looking into bilsteins. Thanks for the heads up, less time wasted on my side :)

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:38 pm 
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PBC137 wrote:
G-sus wrote:
I have access to kyb, koni, monroe and bilsteins locally, konis probably being out of the question, since they're damn expensive, I have monroes on mine atm, but they're 10 years old so can't really say if they're any good and I found one shop who sell bilsteins for the swift. Have to check out the prices first though.


If you think Koni's are expensive, wait till you see the price on Bilstein's.

This thread is the very first time I have ever heard anyone refer to Bilstein as "nothing special". Bilstein is regarded in rally and circuit circles as one of the top 5 best shock producers in the world. I refer anyone to Dennis Heath of FarNorth Racing, and to read his articles on suspension tuning.

I believe the other top names were Penski, Ohlins and a couple more I can't recall.


:roll:

Bottom of the range Bilsteins that are available for the swift are quite different (valving wise)from the higher performance Bilsteins guys use for racing, I am well aware of Dennis GRANT from Far North racing, I have used him as reference for many years and his 'Autocross to win' E book has helped confirm my own theories over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:31 am 
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Yes, Dennis Grant, sorry there.

I didn't know Bilstein produced anything but high end, but maybe that's because of my experience with their products.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Need some advice asap, I've decided to go with KYB as they fit my budget rather well, but I have 2 options: oil monotube or gas twin-tube? The gas ones are just about £30 more expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Can you post any pics of the gas twin tube ones?

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:53 pm 
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The Kyb twin tubes will be low pressure gas, personally I would spend the extra and get the excel g monotubes.


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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:56 am 
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I don't have any pics, just the info and prices.

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 Post subject: Re: oil vs gas shocks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Alright, as I managed to find out, I've got a choice between the oil monotube KYB premium shocks and the gas charged twin-tube KYB excel-g. I've found mixed reviews, but in general there seems to be an opinion that monotubes are more rigid, shed heat better and in general can take more pounding, the KYB premiums being cheaper as well. I've also found out that koni's are twin-tube oil shocks.

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