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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:47 am 
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The mad quebecer
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Even if you were yo lose 1hp gain on your car, wouldn't a cleaner air make it worth it? I believe the future of our kids is more important than 0.1sec gain on the quarter mile.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:19 am 
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almost any stock fuel injected vehicle will pass an emissions test without a cat. a monolithic cat. is not designed to make a car that is constantly failing emissions, pass. they are designed to cleanup cold startup emissions, short WOT bursts, uphill climbs and decell emissions. and on a car with o2 sensors still able to run in closed loop, can still pass with a few mods.

a well designed exhaust system with cats will have no performance loss, any one who says different should also invest in one of these.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=15925

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:34 pm 
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tuffcarguy wrote:
a well designed exhaust system with cats will have no performance loss, any one who says different should also invest in one of these.

Thats just not true. You cannot induce a restriction, and have no power loss. No amount of backpressure is good for power. I still have them on my cars, but it sounds to me like you are confusing the issues. Using them is the right thing to do, but suggesting that they are good for power is pushing it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:46 pm 
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http://www.cesracing.com.au/ Even with a cat convertor, they make good gains...these guys are really at the pinnacle of exhaust design around here, though, and you pay for what you get.

There is also a 4" Magic Cat available here that cleans air very well and posts VERY little restriction. A 3" version also exists, I think. Not posting to argue with anyone....just adding some ideas and pics and proof of hi-po exhausts with cats included.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:26 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
tuffcarguy wrote:
a well designed exhaust system with cats will have no performance loss, any one who says different should also invest in one of these.

Thats just not true. You cannot induce a restriction, and have no power loss. No amount of backpressure is good for power. I still have them on my cars, but it sounds to me like you are confusing the issues. Using them is the right thing to do, but suggesting that they are good for power is pushing it.


i am not confusing any issues. i am not saying they create power at all. the kind of mindset a person has to hollow out a cat for performance, is the same kind of mindset to buy into the theory of those "tornados"..

btw, i hear poeple saying 2.50 inch exhaust is too big for a 1.3. so is a 3" cat going to be restrictive??

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:00 pm 
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The inlet pipe diameter of the cat converter is almost meaingless. It's the converter material area and the density of the converter material. The shape of the converter will also play rolls (thin and wide or fat and round), also the length will play a roll in the eff % and the restriction.

Typical high flow units are round LOW density and long. There are of course short low density ones that are "ULTRA" flow :roll:

Key factors in restriction:
cross section of cat material
density of cat material
Length of cat material
physical type of housing (round, thin and wide, offset input/outlet, etc)
and input/output diamater.

A 5" input round high flow cat would not flow more/less than a 2" high flow cat on our cars. Think about it.. :?

"high flow" is typically a sales gimmick. Ask to see the ""HIGH FLOW"" :roll: unit. The inlet diameter is meaningless (as long as it's 2" give or take a little). Compare the density of the cat material (how big the holes are in the converter material)....

Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:46 pm 
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Well my car has two cats. The firtst one is the exhaust manifold and the second one is placed in the typical location.

It is illegal for me to hollow out my cats but it is also just as illegal to put an aftermarket cat on. So either way I am screwed and breaking the law.

My car runs pretty clean according to my OBDII so I don't feel bad.

I don't think the cats help at all with the cold start because the cats have to get quite hot to work.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:36 pm 
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Doesn't your motor run nasty rich on cold start? My motor does as well as Tim's. Even have to hold some throttle to her to get 'em fired up until they go into closed loop. Seems to not have as much vacuum at idle and the MAP says hey, I need more fuel :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:46 pm 
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Yeah it runs like crap cold. Forget trying to drive it cold. It will stall as soon as I let off the throttle. The car does warm up alot quicker than it used to.

It doesn't seem to want to fast idle for warm up anymore, so my foot takes over the computers job.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:09 pm 
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Same problem for Tim & I. I bumped up my idle a bit and told Tim to do the same. Sure helps but the first 30 seconds after she fires up, it requires a little throttle or she will foul the plugs everytime. It is running way rich on cold start. Overlap & longer duration are screwing with the MAP sensor signal. Gonna take this SAFC II and cure that problem one day...


Sure thinking of machining my spare cam gear for ~8 degrees advance. With this bone stock torque converter, need all the low end punch she can get to bring her on the pipe sooner.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:30 pm 
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My old cam was sent ot Mike last Tuesday so he can measure for the centerline and make us our cam gears.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:37 pm 
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Sure hope the centerline is a mess like the stock G10 is. Certainly can use some more down low as there is no shortage of mid range & top end with the 'Cove cam :lol: Header only adds more everywhere. How soon until you go with a full exhaust? I went without a pre-silencer and she is a bit loud for my taste but not any louder than any Acura or Hunduh mobile... Running a Catco behind the swaybar. Suzuki RD header under there as well. 14" long canister (fart can) out back. Short 3.5" tip with about the same diameter. I pointed it slightly downward to help the noise.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:41 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Thats just not true. You cannot induce a restriction, and have no power loss.


Yes you can. Ask anyone with a 1.0l engine to install a 2 1/2 exhaust all the way to the back.. or even better, chop the exhaust pipes at the tip of the exhaust manifold, see if there is any improvements.

Any N/A car need restriction in the exhaust system to perform better.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:58 pm 
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I thought it was any car that was DESIGNED within certain parameters (ie, no car runs a straight pipe from the factory) needs some back pressure because it was designed with it. Am I way off here?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:02 am 
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Metropwr wrote:
Well my car has two cats. The firtst one is the exhaust manifold and the second one is placed in the typical location.

see that's just being redundant, of course it should still pass emissions, let's not confuse running only 1 converter with completely removing a cat from the exhaust system.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:26 am 
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is it me or has this thread went way off topic? :dunno:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:34 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
Yes you can. Ask anyone with a 1.0l engine to install a 2 1/2 exhaust all the way to the back.. or even better, chop the exhaust pipes at the tip of the exhaust manifold, see if there is any improvements.

Any N/A car need restriction in the exhaust system to perform better.

You are confusing exhaust gas velocity with restriction/backpressure, and using an extreme example to attempt to prove it. Two totally different things.
No amount of backpressure is good for power.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:27 am 
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I don't confuse anything Sir. I just don't have hours to elaborate about something that is documented all over the internet with tons of informations.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:33 am 
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My exhaust sshould be done in 4-6 weeks. I am going to run the same header you and Tim have with a 2" or 2 1/4" pipe, 2 1/4" three chamber (maybe two chamber)Flowmaster and 2 1/4" cat, side dumped in front of the rear tire.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:29 pm 
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Jardamuth wrote:
suprf1y wrote:
Thats just not true. You cannot induce a restriction, and have no power loss.


Yes you can. Ask anyone with a 1.0l engine to install a 2 1/2 exhaust all the way to the back.. or even better, chop the exhaust pipes at the tip of the exhaust manifold, see if there is any improvements.

Any N/A car need restriction in the exhaust system to perform better.


Noooooooooooooooooot quite right....
"""""backpressure""""" is associated with a crappy muffler, plugged cat, and a SMALL pipe diamater.

A 5" exhaust pipe will perform VERY badly on our n/a small displacement cars.

Exhaust scavenging is what is important. Scavenging ##'s are related to exhaust pipe size. There's lots of ##'s and equations to find the BEST overall size, perforamnce size, rally size, etc, etc, etc. (think of a tuned pipe on a 2 cycle system, similar principle..)

I think the term "backpressure" is misused and the retail market takes advantage of that...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Metropwr wrote:
My exhaust sshould be done in 4-6 weeks. I am going to run the same header you and Tim have with a 2" or 2 1/4" pipe, 2 1/4" three chamber (maybe two chamber)Flowmaster and 2 1/4" cat, side dumped in front of the rear tire.


That's a similar setup I'm running on my modified suzuki samurai. Sounds nice and throaty on idle. The interrior resonance/droaning sound does get anoying though..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:33 pm 
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Superfly is right, backpressure is BS. It isn't even a real word. "Backpressure" is no different than "upstream pressure."

A lot of people seem to thing that naturally aspirated engines need exhaust gas pressure, and for what reason they think this makes sense I just don't know. True, an oversized exhaust will hurt performance, but pressure inside the exhaust piping is simply a byproduct of flow (or the lack thereof). The factor that people should be concerning themselves with is flow capacity of the exhaust, not backpressure. The flow capacity of the exhaust should match the flow capacity of the engine for the rev band you are tuning the car for, for the exhaust to have maximum effect. Simple as that.

It's like saying electrical wires need resistance to carry current.

And yes, I've ran a car headerless before, and it made more power than any other exhaust combination. True, scavenging effects will help extract more power on a system with a full exhaust, but compared to power increase from flow, the effect of scavenging is small. When running an engine with no header, the exhaust gas immediately has anywhere to go, and thus can disperse much quicker, rather than being forced down a pipe to get in the way of the next pulse.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:06 pm 
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rarson wrote:

It's like saying electrical wires need resistance to carry current.

And yes, I've ran a car headerless before, and it made more power than any other exhaust combination. True, scavenging effects will help extract more power on a system with a full exhaust, but compared to power increase from flow, the effect of scavenging is small. When running an engine with no header, the exhaust gas immediately has anywhere to go, and thus can disperse much quicker, rather than being forced down a pipe to get in the way of the next pulse.


I understand the electrical metaphor, lol

Headerless/exhaustmanifoldless, interesting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Quote:
The flow capacity of the exhaust should match the flow capacity of the engine for the rev band you are tuning the car for, for the exhaust to have maximum effect. Simple as that.


Well put.

Quote:
It's like saying electrical wires need resistance to carry current.


Even better :D
I think you made the point better than I could have.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:45 am 
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There is one good liquid additive that will work. CATALYTIC CONVERTER CLEANER & DEODORIZER that you can get by mail order at JC Whitney. The direct link until it changes is:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/prod ... map=10760G

That is a long link, but you can search for it at jcwhitney.com or at any search engine using "CATALYTIC CONVERTER CLEANER & DEODORIZER' in the search line.

Another good product is "Guaranteed To Pass" emissions test formula, which I get from "Auto Zone". The ratings on these are excellent.


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