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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:21 am 
If I got a Calmini header, which is 4-2 and mates to the stock intermediate pipe, does it make sense to increase the exhaust diameter after the intermediate pipe to 2" to reduce restriction? Or will the exhaust decelerate in the expansion from the intermediate pipe to the rest of the exhaust? Do you think that a muffler shop could fabricate an intermediate pipe that would go to 2" diameter instead of stock?<br><br>Thanks to anyone who responds,<br><br>Matt <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:03 am 
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I have the Clamini header, stock 2-1 collector and then 2" to the rear with a Slowmaster muffler. Works decent on my car. <p>Tony<br><br>Proud owner of<br>1970 AMX 360/auto with A/C<br>1989 Suzuki Swift GTi<br></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:15 pm 
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so which header work better, calmini 4-2, or genies 4-2-1 on the swift? <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:31 am 
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The Calmini header has a weird design because it collects cyls 1-3 and 4-2 ( <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.puresuzuki.com/P0000872.jpg">www.puresuzuki.com/P0000872.jpg</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> ) unlike the Genie that does it in a more logical way (4-1 and 2-3). I would go for the genie. <p>'95 Suzuki Swift GTi tuned by HM Competición</p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:22 am 
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thanks mate..........to be honest i havnt mentioned that. <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Calmini vs Genie
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:01 am 
Caaarlo,<br><br>Is 4-1, 2-3 better because of the firing sequence?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Matt <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Calmini vs Genie
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:36 pm 
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Exactly! <p>'95 Suzuki Swift GTi tuned by HM Competición</p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Calmini vs Genie
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:13 pm 
guys it wouldn't matter on the cal-mini header how it collects because it is a 4 into 2 design...kind of like an x pipe on a v8 car,alternate pulses lower the back pressure. the genie has to collect the way it does or there would be tremendous backpressure where the 2 go into the one. I personaly have run the cal-mini header and my car ran great. I had a 2.5 inch manderel bent custom system including cat... had great upper end power but lost torque. a 2 inch would be better unless you plan to turbo. either way you will only pick up about 6-8 hp with the header, wich ever design you decide to go with. <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: headers...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:59 am 
For better response a header must go 1-4/2-3...any kind of desing including the 4 into 2 and the 4 into 1.<br><br>Pipe #1 and #4 has to go together and the #2 and #3 together. <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: headers...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:43 am 
to quote lt. Ellen Ripley "Did i.q.'s drop sharpley while I was away?" try and design a 4 into 2 header where cyls. 1 and 4 are collected into 1 pipe and 2 and 3 are collected into annother...wait that would make it a 4 into 1 design! all the pipes would try to join at the same point. Cal-mini designed their header the way that it is so it could be more compact but have the same flow as a 4 into 1 type. think of the firing order...4-1-2-3 then think of the "pulse" after the piston fires. first one side flows out, then the other...let me put it annother way, a 4 into one is like a race between exhaust pulses 4 has to get to the junction of the pipes before 1 does and 1 has to get there before 2 and so on thats why the pipes are so long. the cal mini header doesn't have this problem because it uses the firing order to its advantage... 4 fires int its own side than 1 fires into its own side...by the time 2 fires it side is clear which reduces backpressure in a shorter space making it a more efficient design. if you dyno tested both headers i doubt there is more than a 2 hp difference between them. also the cal-mini bolts up to the stock collector which saves you a little bit of do-re-mi!!! <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: headers...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:43 pm 
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Isn't the firing order 1-3-4-2 ?????? <p>'95 Suzuki Swift GTi tuned by HM Competición</p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:12 pm 
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>does it make sense to increase the exhaust diameter after the intermediate pipe to 2" to reduce restriction?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->hey i ws just re-reading this, ditch that stock intermediate pipe, it may look like 2", but it's actually just a double walled section i think it's 1.5" or smaller inside diameter.<br> <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:35 pm 
that intermediate pipe has to go..it is a bottle neck. had the cal mini header and a full 2.5 inch (including random tech. cat) custom exhaust. 2 inch would have been better for the mods I made. custom intake..nissan maf, msd 6al..dyno'd at 100 h.p @7100 r.p.m but torque was less than stock and at a higher r.p.m..think it was 68 ft lbs at 4800 or something like that..then there is the noise factor..mine sounded like it had no muffler, it was cool for about a week...then it sucked,bad. as the cat and muff had a few heat cycles they got even louder. buy a good muffler. <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Reviving this old post in the hopes of stimulating some really nerdy discussion of the relative merits/pitfalls of the Calmini header design and some advice on how it might be improved.

I bought one recently from Calmini when I learned that they had some new-old-stock on hand that they were willing to sell. I had recently struck out trying to get a Cultus header through Strider. I made the mistake of going with sea-mail, and it never came. So I bought the Calmini almost entirely based on the fact that here was a product that I could purchase brand new that only had to be shipped in-state.

I hadn't even seen a picture. Whoops. I was surprised to find that their offering only replaced the cast iron manifold and not the stock down-pipe.

Further, after doing a bunch more research I see that they tried a sequentially-paired design (1-3, 4-2) rather than the non-sequentially paired designed used by the stock manifold and every other tri-y design that is/was on the market.

I get why the usual 1-4 3-2 pairing works from reading this article

http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_reports/EPG%20PART%20IV.pdf and others like it.

So, the Calmini header was clearly a design with some compromises for space and packaging (easier to ship and manufacture) yet I also read that sequentially paired designs:

Quote:
allow(s) for a broader powerband and better acceleration properties from an engine


and

Quote:
The reason sequentially pairing of header primaries works is due to the energy imparted to the exhaust charge. If you just do 180 degree timing on the exhaust side, the exhaust pulses are evenly spaced, and they do permit a certain amount of "tuning", as opposed to just dumping everything into one collector.

When you space the tubes so there are more sequential pulses, the energy from one tube will have a much greater impact on the cylinder it's paired with, and the combined energy will have a much greater effect on the other tube it merges with.


from this article:

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs/michaeldelaney/2-header-exhaust-design-effects-engine-power.html

But examples of modern sequential tri-y headers don't look like a Calmini, having long primaries instead of short ones.

So, long story short, I have a set up similar to the one described by the original poster with a Calmini header, the stock downtube, a section of 1 7/8" pipe from the flange to the cat, and 2" from the cat back through a 26" straight-though glass pack around a 90deg mandrel bend and out in front of the passenger rear wheel.

Sounds great, but I have had a bunch of trouble getting everything to seal up and therefore it's hard to comment on the performance improvement, if any, over the stock manifold. What I want is basically anything that doesn't rob me of too much power or make the car more peaky than it is already--even if the stock characteristics remained, the weight savings would be worth it. I am not sure whether I am getting that, though it's clear from the seat of the pants that I haven't totally ruined the powerband :roll: What I would expect from the design based on other research is that sequential tri-y with short primaries should shift peak torque earlier and make more power after peak torque, but be exceptionally poor at the lowest RPMs and have less of a distinct kick as the velocity increases due to the lack of a frequency tuning effect as in a 1-4, 3-2 header. Not ideal, but not bad provided one isn't lugging the engine around at 2,000 RPM all the time.

But I have other issues with the header. First, I failed to understand what the factory provided instructions were telling me to do and have had to take everything off the car to redo the install three times because it didn't soak in that I was supposed to cut the down tube pipes off flush before bolting them to the header and I kept getting leaks at the flange gasket (hard to tell this was the problem as the pipes almost slip into the header as if designed to do so--I thought initially that the fit problem was due to a flange surface that wasn't flat and that the instructions were telling me to cut something flush on the motor side that I didn't seem to have. Frustrated with the leak and with limited time to make the repair, I welded the flange together. Then, in a fit of remorse after a sudden burst of understanding the instructions caused me to obsessively visualize exhaust pulses reflecting on the pipes stuck up in the header, I cut them back apart, cut off the pipes, welded a bead to replace material that was cut away on the flange, grinded everything down as flat as possible and tried one more time to seal the flange with a gasket and some properly applied high-temp rtv. No good--still leaking from the flange, seems as though the Calmini generates too much pressure at the flange for the stock bolt locations to hold everything together tight enough.

So, I am debating how I solve this problem and I am weighing the potential to improve the way the system works as well as simply fix the leak.

The question is: how well does the Calmini design really work with the stock down tube? For example, could I increase power or adjust the torque curve in a beneficial way by nixing the stock part and having something "better" fabricated to weld into place instead?

Specifically, what about cutting the existing secondaries up to make them shorter, getting a better, more gradual 2-1 collector fabricated, then lengthening the collector before the flange?

Because "the combined energy will have a much greater effect on the other tube it merges with" I can see that this might dramatically improve scavenging, but =)

I can't find a good reference for the effects of secondary pipe length on a sequentially paired tri-y/4-2-1 header. Anybody smart enough to make a suggestion? I am afraid that shorter secondaries and a longer final "collector" might boost peak power a lot but shift the torque curve further in the direction I don't want to go (higher).

If that's the case, I'll just weld the thing together again, this time with some piece of mind that at least the way the flange meets should not allow for any cross-talk and won't promote reversion by being stepped the wrong way.

Any sage advice, or at least some more experience with Calmini's? I wish the picture that used to be linked above still worked as I believe it might speak to what I am wondering about....

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:15 am 
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I can't see the PDF you posted.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:04 am 
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Oh, I see what happened--the dangers of leaving a space in a file name. Not sure if I do this

http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_reports/EPG%2020PART%2020IV.pdf

or this [url]"http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_reports/EPG 20PART 20IV.pdf"[/url]

Caarlo, glad to see you pipe up--the article reinforces what you have been saying all along, but doesn't test a sequential design to see how the characteristics are changed vs. a conventional non-sequential design. What I do see from poking around is that the only sequential paired designs I see that are successful (on larger Honda motors that have the same firing order) have very long primary tubes and very short secondaries. What I don't know is why this is better and what potential benefits/trade offs there might be.

I am thinking that the smartest thing to do would be to just replace the stock collector with a better one and maybe run a venturi cone right before the cat. That should help the header do whatever it is doing better across whatever curve the header is trying to make. I can't help but wonder if this is one of those situations where the curve is so shifted so high that you'll never get there, but then again others seem to have been happy enough with the Calminis and mine seems to run pretty good right now, even before I weld or do whatever I am going to do to fix that leak.

I also need to install my chip, which will change how effective the whole system is as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:10 am 
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or this http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php :roll:

It's the first one in line at the top.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:03 am 
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How much did that heades cost?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:25 am 
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The article
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_r ... T%20IV.pdf
concluded that a 4 into 1 exhaust provided the best scavenging for a Lycoming/aircraft engine @ less than 3,000 rpms, although a 'tri-Y' (crossover) exhaust system can provide good scavenging.
They used a Mooney in Corona to test the 4 into 1.
Interestingly, the CAFE Foundation is based in Santa Rosa, home to our own Wizewun.
I've flown Mooneys in and around Corona, and airplane engines are a little different than our powerplants in that those Lycomings are air cooled and rarely get over 2750 rpms.
With an airplane engine, you warm it up, run it up to the maximum rpm you'll be using for the flight, reduce it, and take the active (runway).
With our car engines, we fire them up, run off to our destination and the computers vary the fuel as we go.
Once they are warmed, hitting 3,000, 4,000, or even twice that can be a common thing.
The exhaust system in a car has a very difficult time of it, as we are constantly varying the exhaust.

The article, indeed the whole CAFE site applies, but caution should be used when transferring their information. Graphs in the article date back to the mid 1990s and modern 'pressure transducers' used to diagnose engine problems can find their roots in this article.

Thanks for the post; I hope our young engineers (Aerospace, mechanical...whatever) will take note of this thread and chime in.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Instant shine:

I believe it was $229 USD. It came to just over $260 with CA sales tax and shipping.

While Strider still owes me a refund and I am leery of shipping from Malaysia again, I think getting a Cultus part shipped from him (by airmail!) is still probably the better solution. Otherwise you may be able to get a Pacesetter 4-2-1 similar to Genie from Australia, but that's even more $$$

If I ever get dyno results I'll share, but that's unlikely any time soon.

Phil: The article does show the best HP gains for the 4-1 but also shows that a 4-2-1 has a greater negative pressure wave at overlap albeit at the expense of pumping losses and higher pressure at valve opening. That's why the 4-2-1 are so good at making power in the low end. It is also noted that the whole phenomenon has to be tuned carefully to make sure it occurs during overlap within the RPM range you are looking for. I think that's another reason Calmini chose sequential pairing--they were unable to get the runner length tuned correctly to get the typical 4-2-1 effect while retaining the stock manifold's dimensions and found that unequal length and correct tuning was less of an issue provided there was a little method to the madness (runners for 1 and 4 a bit longer than those for 2 and 3). In other words, they found a way to make something "cheap" and easy to ship that wasn't as terrible as it might seem at first glance, though I don't have any numbers to say how not-terrible. I'll be checking my g-meter closely to see if I get better numbers on acceleration.

A really good 4-1 manifold can be just as good down low though, particularly with a little restriction at the end. Rogelio is adamant that he got the best low end running the Cultus 4-1 and a 1 3/4 exhaust and he claims to have "tried them all". On the other hand, he also was surprised at the pull my car has, exhaust leak and all, when he couldn't run away from me in 2nd gear...

I think that if I had it to do all over again (meaning that I will actually do this at some point, but not any time soon so I can forget how much money I spent on the Calmini and all the fabrication I've done to make it work) I would look more closely at the Pacesetter product and contact one of the overseas dealers to see if they would ship internationally.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:09 pm 
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The paper needs some deeper reading and analysis, but only the conventional 4-2-1 header is tested: pairing cylinders 180deg apart. And yes, the strongest exhaust tune is found on the 4-1 design, and this might be good for an aircraft engine, as they operate in a narrower RPM band than a car/bike engine.

4-2-1 offers a trade-off between peak performance and a broader powerband, good for street use.

Regarding sequential pairing, I guess Subaru follows a similar strategy for their BOXER exhaust headers, that's why the sound is quite strange, because the exhaust pulses are not evenly spaced in the exhaust. I don't think it's optimal, but a practical solution instead.

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:18 pm 
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4-2-1 would also be good for me in autocross, as I never know how the lot will work with my gearing--sometimes I am lucky and I am in the sweet spot of the powerband in 2nd the whole time, but other times I'll be trying to find a shift point and having trouble being off the power in 3rd or beyond the fuel cut in 2nd, so the broadest powerband possible would be great.

Any thoughts on the original question of whether modifying the stock down tube to shorten the secondaries and provide for a longer collector would improve the Calmini design for low and midrange torque (or just all across the powerband)?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:10 pm 
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the best running twincam i've had used the cultus exhaust manifold with a 2.25" exhaust. i'll try to replicate it with my current twincam project.

i believe that the cultus header is better at tuning in the higher rev ranges than the calmini. the suzuki guys really did their research on tuning the cultus header.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:11 am 
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T3, there is some consensus that the Cultus extractor is the "best" --certainly for top end, but reportedly not sacrificing midrange even though it is a 4-1, which is not common but not unheard of either. It is perhaps no surprise that the Suzuki engineered intake and exhaust manifolds are the most effective. Discussing this with some other folks it has been recommended to run a smaller exhaust with the Cultus to preserve that bottom end though, more on the order of 1 3/4".

However, that's not what I've got :( , so I am looking for some input on whether the Calmini design can be improved. Just looking at the design, the Calmini is likely the "worst" of the products but the fact that the stock downtube is retained does allow from some tweaking of the design by modifying or replacing that piece. For example, one could run the 2-1 merge right up by the primaries and run a much longer collector out to the flange, or keep the stock bit and simply upgrade the merge collector for a better one that includes a short megaphone.

A better merge collector should help a great deal, but the question is where to put it and how changing the location would effect the torque curve. Any idea what happens when the secondary pipe length is altered on a sequentially paired 4-2-1 header design? This is what I couldn't find a reference for and was my original question.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:15 pm 
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I think it's time to post the construction of my 4-1 header soon. It was custom designed for 11:1 CR, 212/340 cams and an 8600 RPM limit. The peak performance of this header falls within 7000-7500 RPM. I'll scan the drawings and post them here. I'm sure you'll find it useful.

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