TeamSwift
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G10 MPFI
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25103
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Author:  87t1 [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  G10 MPFI

This is my G10 MPFI project to date:

This pic shows the tooling and general parts.

Image

the 2 following pics are the drills/cutting tools.

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8826
http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8827

This one shows a stock G10 intake port.

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8828

Setup used for reverse drilling.

Image

G10 with injector hole drilled.

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8830

Side view cutting O ring recesses.

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8831

Completed injector pads.

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8832

Fuel rail setup.

Image

Just need to make a fuel rail bracket....

Author:  Dattman [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:01 am ]
Post subject: 

Nice work, takes a brave man to drill holes in a perfectly good head :lol:

Author:  suprf1y [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 

That a job well done. Good work!
Do you want a set of turbo 3 injectors for that?

Author:  87t1 [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi dattman,

Dattman wrote:
Nice work, takes a brave man to drill holes in a perfectly good head :lol:


No, its easy---- all you do is close your eyes and ignore the yelling.... :shock: ... :rollin:



Hello Suprf1y, I was going to use the 01 16v sohc injectors because 3 in parallel are 4 ohms.
I measured the MK1 T3 injectors, they are 5 ohms. I dont know what the MK2 T3 injectors resistance is,
I have never seen any. :(


thanks :)

Author:  suprf1y [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
I dont know what the MK2 T3 injectors resistance is,
I have never seen any.
As I recall, they are the same.
Is there any reason you need a specific r value?

Author:  87t1 [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:04 pm ]
Post subject: 

2 Reasons-

I want to use the stock ecm if possible, the closer the impeadance match the better it will work.

Also the 01 swift injectors should work better with the 01 swift FPR. The MK1 T3 FPR has a different
pressure response curve than a non-turbo FPR.

Author:  turbo2475 [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bravo! :clap: Nicely done!

Author:  Dattman [ Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

So what intake manifold are you going to run??? ditch the stock ecu, megasquirt it then you could use stripped out triple motorcycle carbs, if you gut them so it's only the butterflies and bodies then run a map sensor you could get some decent power with out mucking around trying to tune motorcycle carbs... I am very interested to see how this project turns out :razz:

Author:  87t1 [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:46 am ]
Post subject: 

The idea is to use the stock ECM to operate the 3 injectors as a batch fire system.
I will fab. a tuned runner manifold similar to the MK1 T3 sprint turbo, using all
stock sensors. Just want to see if more power and mileage can be had from a G10.
Turbos and dohc's are nice, but this project is for the daily driven commuter cars.

Author:  mosier [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

For power, I'd think it would all come down to manifold design. Are the injectors you're using 1/3 of the flow of the TBI injector? If they're not close to that, you might have some issues, and if they flow too much more, probably have trouble getting good mileage.

I think it would be cool to try something like this, but one problem I'd see is.. when you're at lower RPMs and lower loads (where you need finer fuel control), your injectors are going to be firing constantly but the intake valve is only open for a short amount of time. With TBI, you're spraying fuel prior to the throttle body--into a central flow of air, but with your setup, you're spraying close to the back of the valves. Once the intake valve closes, fuel meant for the other two intake strokes is going to continue to spray, and puddle on the back of the valve. I dont see the air and fuel trying to reverse and go to the next opening valve, most likely hurting fuel economy. For power and high revs, this setup would be fine. (I'm aware batch mode has been used in production vehicles in the past, but I'd think you'd take a small hit in economy.)

suprf1y has said in the past that the 1.0 really needs a larger TB to make power, are you going to try a larger one? If so, I'd guess you'd need a controller to make up for the difference in size.

I hope someone can jump in and give some more input.

Author:  87t1 [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  G10 mpfi

Hello mosier,

The injectors are used on a sohc 16v 1.3 L, which has the same cylinder displacement as the G10.

On the MK1 T3 the injectors are fired once per crank revoloution, as are the TBI injectors.

I am going to use a 91 GTI TB on the manifold for more airflow, along with a header and larger exhaust.

Thanks for your input. :)

Author:  mosier [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:11 am ]
Post subject: 

I didn't notice you were using the 1.3 injectors before. Even though you might have the same displacement when using 3, is the fuel flow rate proportional between the two motors? I mean.. did the 1.3 get 1.3 times as much fuel? You seem to have everything figured out already, so I'm just catching up hah.

So on the T3, you have on long injection event where all three injectors fire at the same time, or 3 seperate ones? I'm not familiar with the T3 setup, but if they all fire together.. then I'm even more interested in what you're doing :)

Author:  87t1 [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:48 am ]
Post subject: 

On a MK1 T3, the 3 injectors are in parallel, this causes them to operate at the same time (batch fire)

good luck :)

Author:  T Bell [ Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think the 1.3 injectors would spray the same amount of fuel, depending on the flow rates. The way I'm thinking the 1.0L injector is 60lb injectors (don't know just hypothetical). The 1.3L 16V has 4 injectors, if the total for all were 80lbs, then it should work. 80 / 4 = 20lbs per injector. 20 X 3 = 60lbs. Which would put you right were you need to be. But you'd need to make sure injector flow rates are correct.

Author:  87t1 [ Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

T Bell wrote:
I think the 1.3 injectors would spray the same amount of fuel, depending on the flow rates. The way I'm thinking the 1.0L injector is 60lb injectors (don't know just hypothetical). The 1.3L 16V has 4 injectors, if the total for all were 80lbs, then it should work. 80 / 4 = 20lbs per injector. 20 X 3 = 60lbs. Which would put you right were you need to be. But you'd need to make sure injector flow rates are correct.


So......What you are saying is that I may be correct, but need to check anyway? :roll:
Thanks, that's what I am doing. :lol:

Author:  Dattman [ Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:12 am ]
Post subject: 

Jeez it's taken this long for people to figure it out :lol:

Just a couple of things though 87t1... wouldn't the existing single injector mounted so far away from the head provide more better vapourisation and torque but have a slower throttle reponse??? I suspect your plan will provide more mileage through more precise fuel delivery and certainly better throttle response, I would love to see what the results would be if you used the same manifold, I think you might get less hp and torque. Just as well you are making a new manifold...

Keen to hear about any updates or educated opinions. :D

Author:  T Bell [ Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 

87t1 wrote:
So......What you are saying is that I may be correct, but need to check anyway? :roll:
Thanks, that's what I am doing. :lol:


Ha ha ha. I know it sounded crazy but I was doubting your theory when I 1st wrote it but then later figured it would work, depending on the flow rates.

Author:  87t1 [ Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Dattman,


If you want an "educated opinion" try asking an engineer--- :wink:
(I only graduated from high school)--12th grade



The TBI system is only one step above a carbed motor- The factory's reasons for going to port injection were more torque
and fewer emissions. At first, I plan to use the original intake manifold, throttle body, and attached sensors for testing
With the new injectors. By moving the fuel hoses to the new fuel rail and using the original throttle body for warmup idle,
idle and airflow control, A lot of Fab. time will be saved. Also, this version may be the best deal for the time and money spent.

NOTE: I think the engineers may have wanted to port inject the G10, but the finance dept. wrapped em' in red tape.


good luck :)


edited for spelling and syntax errors

Author:  87t1 [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:47 am ]
Post subject: 

Image

Injectors installed

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8956

Side view of fuel rail

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8957

Height of fuel rail

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8958




good luck :)

Author:  87t1 [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

Now I need to make 2 dummy injectors, one for each end of the fuel rail---by using a 3 / 8 rod
in each end of the rail, the dummy injectors locate the fuel rail above the head. The pic below
shows the drill guide, which is also used to boresight the injectors with the intake bowl.




Image


These pictures show the dummy injectors and guide rods

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8964

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8965




Image

http://www.teamswift.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=8967


later :D

Author:  Dattman [ Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:45 am ]
Post subject: 

Nice work, but please you're killing us slowly with those photo's, man you really really need to get a decent camera, I get cross eyed trying to look at those photo's :vibe:

Author:  87t1 [ Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:46 am ]
Post subject: 

Sorry, I will buy a better camera when I finish my Mail in Doctoral studies.......... :lol:



ImageA good thing to be into... :drools:


A career of study and sacrifice :wink:

Author:  Lihtan [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:33 am ]
Post subject: 

Dattman wrote:
Nice work, but please you're killing us slowly with those photo's, man you really really need to get a decent camera, I get cross eyed trying to look at those photo's :vibe:

The pics are way better than the ones I take. (grainy NTSC still captures from a broken Sony Handycam, interpolated up to 640x480). Does your camera have a manual focus control? Some fixed focus lenses can be readjusted by taking the camera apart.

BTW, awesome thread.

Author:  87t1 [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:56 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks, Lihtan.
The camera is the cheapest one Fry's electronics sells, with (fixed focus)
It may be the flash overexposing on the alumnium (or my poor photography) :goofy:
I will try a different color background for the next pics..... :huh:

Author:  mosier [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:12 am ]
Post subject: 

I've been checking this thread everyday... you gotta get this thing running soon :)

When taking the pics step back a little further from the work, and try to get as much light from the room onto the work, keeping the flash from overexposing everything..

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