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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:31 pm 
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Mama Said Knock You Out!
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Ya know, I've been thinking of trying something new lately on my car with the turbo setup... Running E85 capable fuel lines from the tank, and replacing the fuel injector O rings with something that can handle E85. E85 has a 100-110 octane rating, and allows a much more rich mixture to be used(9.7:1 vs gasoline's 14.7:1). You know what that means... More fuel, more power, similar to how nitromethane (1.7:1, but only 5,000BTU/lb) works. And with a higher octane rating, you can add more boost!!! :twisted:

For a turbo car, you could use heavier injectors, and run much more fuel and boost using E85. Of course, at a cost of gas mileage. E85 only becomes highly corrosive if contaminated with water, so it shouldn't damage the fuel rail. A nitride coating on the pistons and inside of the fuel rail would prevent any damage to them also. E85 is way cheaper than race gas
Gasoline - max rich = 12.5:1
Gasoline - stoichiometric = 14.7:1
E85 max rich =6.975:1
E85 stoichiometric =9.765:1

So....
1 gallon of E85 has 81,800BTU
1 gallon of gasoline - 114,100BTU

so, gasoline has 28% more potency than E85...
Now, knowing you can dump more fuel into the cylinder to overcome E85's less potent nature(14.7:1 / 9.7:1), you get a pretty good boost in power while still maintaining a safe combustion chamber temperature.

We'll call our power unit a duty cycle. So 1 gallon of gasoline(114,100BTU) divided by 14.7(it's air/fuel ratio) gives us 7761BTU/duty cycle

stoich gasoline = 7,761 BTU/cycle
max rich gas = 9,128 BTU/cycle
stoich E85 = 8,377 BTU/cycle
max rich E85 = 11,727 BTU/cycle

Of course, the E85 is being consumed at a much higher rate, but because of the air/fuel ratios it's capable of, you can achieve an overall higher potency with it.

Anyone see anything wrong with my logic? Please let me know, and provide a corrected method of measuring total output, not just "you're stupid, and I think you're wrong" :lol: I know at least one of you are gonna say that though! Especially you Richard, and you'll say it twice! :lol:

Now, if the E85 won't rot my fuel lines, or my injector O rings, and my fuel tank should be able to handle it just fine.. Any other things I am overlooking that might be damaged by it?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:49 pm 
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your stupid, and I think you're wrong

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:50 pm 
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your stupid, and I think you're wrong

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:51 pm 
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a double dose of the kinder and gentler suprf1y. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:55 pm 
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Mama Said Knock You Out!
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Bah, he's about as kind and gentile as a horny alligator :lol:

Oh, and he got half of his grammar correct
suprf1y wrote:
your stupid, and I think you're wrong

:rollin:

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Last edited by GeoZukiGTi on Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:05 pm 
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:D :D :D

I couldn't resist

The problem is that you are not 'allowed' to run more ethanol, but you are forced to, because the energy in ethanol is less than gasoline.
The increased octane is great, as is the fact that it is so clean burning.
As long as its economically feasible, I would run it, but it may end up costing alot to give you octane that you may not need.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:31 pm 
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Mama Said Knock You Out!
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Well yes, you are forced to, to keep a stoichiometric mixture. E85 requires less oxygen to burn than straight gasoline does. You can't run gasoline at 9:1(or less), but with ethanol you can. That's my point. You can run much more fuel to get a greater power output and maintain a high octane rating. This would be a win/win for someone running a race car, or a summer fun blaster(like me). Only problem being availability of E85 if ya ever take the car on a trip. You would need to be able to tune it on the fly to run a 100% gasoline mixture if need be(Vela, get to work!! :lol: ). (hence, why it's better for a race car).

For people who do racing(where ethanol is legal in the rules) this would be an excellent fuel to use.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:50 am 
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Fuel doesn't make power, air does.

Basically, while some of your logic is correct, when you repeately say "you can run more fuel which means more power" (paraphrased), you are incorrect. To make more power with any specific fuel, you must get MORE AIR into the cylinders (ie, turbochargers, superchargers, and nitrous - which decays into oxygen at high temps).

Getting "more fuel" into the cylinders is easy... a simple change of your injectors or bumping of your fuel pressure will do that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:27 am 
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Thread digging and i thought i might contribuite.

Ethanol soaks up a lot of heat during vaporisation, (roughly 2.5 times more than petrol/gasoline)

This is good as the engine doesn't overheat and in a sense acts as a secondary intercooler. So in theory even if you kept the boost at the same pressure you could produce more power as the air would be consistantly cooler.

Brazil has had ethanol vehicles since 1980, most new models the alcohol car variant produces more power than the gasolie variant and a not far off on the fuel economy (not to mention that ethanol is considerably cheaper in most areas)

Here in australia Saab have launched BioPower, which is an attempt to bring E85 to our shores seeing as it's been so successful in Sweden.
The 2.3l turbo is a 'flexifuel' vehicle that can switch between petrol and e85 fuels.
E85 lifts the output of the 2.3t from 136 to 154kW (182hp to 206hp), the torque was equally impressive but since i can't the figures it was about 10-20Nm

If there is interest i will post up more but it's a bit choppy as i'm rnning on fumes after 2 days no sleep, but i did remember to find this link if anyone is interested in reading up
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:45 pm 
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I believe this argument has merit.

E85 is a new push in the US. There seems to be a lot of E85 cars, but not places to buy it (except MN).

The science in the argument seems to make sense. It really isn't the Oxygen that makes the power. The fuel does. Can't run a car on air. But, the fuel has to be supplied with the proper O2 to make the power.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:28 pm 
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One of the most important aspects of this E85 as a fuel source for our powerplants here in California is that if we can show our vehicles run on E85, then we are qualified to obtain "HOV" (high occupancy vehicle) stickers which allow us to use a lane set aside for cars with more than one person in the vehicle.
Specifically, Southern California has many cars, and if we have the option to use these lanes, it can seriously reduce our commute times.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:51 pm 
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I've heard of some people having success combining boost and high compression using e85 as their fuel for choice. They were making some great numbers to boot.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:10 am 
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Why not run propane injection? Propane has 115 octane.

It will give you about 5hp all in all. A 16oz camping bottle SHOULD last 2-3 tankfuls of gas AND will give you another SOLID 3-4 MPG....

I've been running it for the last year and have had NO PROBLEMS with it whatsoever.

Stops pinging and give me a little boost when I put the AC on.

Only drawback.......Propane doesn't flow/vaporize so well below 40 degrees, so it's not as beneficial in the winter time.

all in all....it's the dogz ballz


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:58 pm 
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The remark about air makes power is not entirely true. The combustion force is where power is created, higher the BMEP higher the tq/hp. That does not necessarily mean more air. If a fuel expands at a higher rate when ignited, in turn it creates more tq (power).

The advantage of ethanol is that you can run high compression safely. Actually I am running 12:1 compression with 17* base timing on E85. I tell people it is corn fed and they look stunned.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:21 am 
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if that's true the dyno it, you should have way more torque than a similar car on high octane gas :D

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:24 pm 
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I havent really looked much into it but my friend in Colorado tells me the DSM guys are starting to get into E85.

I guess its about the same price as regular unleaded but with the high octane boost and tuning everything balances out and cost per mile is about the same as running premium gas.


I have no interest yet, there are a total of 6 E85 stations in AZ and 5 of those are Tucson.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:22 pm 
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autobahnen wrote:
I believe this argument has merit.

E85 is a new push in the US. There seems to be a lot of E85 cars, but not places to buy it (except MN).

The science in the argument seems to make sense. It really isn't the Oxygen that makes the power. The fuel does. Can't run a car on air. But, the fuel has to be supplied with the proper O2 to make the power.


WRONG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:55 pm 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
autobahnen wrote:
I believe this argument has merit.

E85 is a new push in the US. There seems to be a lot of E85 cars, but not places to buy it (except MN).

The science in the argument seems to make sense. It really isn't the Oxygen that makes the power. The fuel does. Can't run a car on air. But, the fuel has to be supplied with the proper O2 to make the power.


WRONG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car


You can't run a car on compressed air alone, you still require a compressor, which has to be powered.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:22 pm 
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you're really using weasel words there. although you only point out something obvious, why bother ?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:56 am 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
you're really using weasel words there. although you only point out something obvious, why bother ?


Had to be captain obvious because you were disputing a well established fact for the point of reference, with an improper counter point.

Compressed air cars work the same way an air ratchet works, or a die grinder. Compressed air does not in and of itself generate the power required by the vehicle to move. It requires a gas engine to run a generator(the brakes also generate power), which charges batteries, which run the compressor, so when only using compressed air to spin the motor, you are limited to a 'claimed' 30 miles.

Oxygen is a requirement for combustion, because it is very negatively charged which is why it when you are burning most things you are really oxidizing it, and the heat being released is a result of the chemical reaction from one state to another permanently altered state. That is why you need, fuel + o2 + heat for anything to ignite.

So in reality, while the air is being forced into the cylinder, and it's expansion forces the piston downwards, it is not actually in the proper sense running on air alone, you air using an electrical powered air compressor which is supported by a gas burning engine spinning an electrical load. Compressed air requires more power than it can generate, and this is why the mileage when not using the gas engine drops to a measely 5% of when you have the gas engine running mileage.

Ahh... it's late... so anyways...

In our application, and the application the original post was referring too, Air in the cylinder cannot combust, a fuel source is required and due to the closed system, a proper ratio of fuel to air needs to applied before you apply the heat which initiates combustion. There are engines that use an air compressor to inject air along with fuel, this is done to maximize the fuel being broken down into as many particles as possible for as efficient a burn as possible.

So I was merely clarifying your gross oversimplification, because there are many people on the interwebs who won't bother to read the link... =)

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B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:38 pm 
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gamefoo21 wrote:
Oxygen is a requirement for combustion, because it is very negatively charged which is why it when you are burning most things you are really oxidizing it, and the heat being released is a result of the chemical reaction from one state to another permanently altered state.



HUH?!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:35 am 
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JellyBeanDriver wrote:
gamefoo21 wrote:
Oxygen is a requirement for combustion, because it is very positively charged which is why it when you are burning most things you are really oxidizing it, and the heat being released is a result of the chemical reaction from one state to another permanently altered state.



HUH?!


God I was tired... :vibe:

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J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:05 pm 
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gamefoo21 wrote:
JellyBeanDriver wrote:
gamefoo21 wrote:
Oxygen is a requirement for combustion, because it is very positively charged which is why it when you are burning most things you are really oxidizing it, and the heat being released is a result of the chemical reaction from one state to another permanently altered state.



HUH?!


God I was tired... :vibe:


O2 has no charge.

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1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:21 am 
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O2 lacks a charge yes, but it's bond is weak...

God damn it... OXYGEN is negative. It will bond fuck your skull, except for Iron and a select few, will rip Oxygen out of the air and and create Fe2O3...

I was sitting there thinking... my head is mush, but I could of swore "O" was a negative 2 usually... Then I used the wiki and it agreed.

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J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:09 pm 
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