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 Post subject: head porting
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:25 pm 
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maybe some of you are aware but I blew up the t3 and while its all apart getting machine work and what not done, I decided to do my own head. originally just to port match for a minor upgrade, but once I saw the exhaust wow, I knew I had material to take off. The intake was very close to that of the gasket, less than a mm to take off on all sides. however, theres atleast DOUBLE that for the whole exhaust. Im about 2 hours into it, finished matching the intake and started a little on the exhaust. ill be in a good garage tomorrow with some heat to finish this up. put another ~4hours into it.

But wow, the exhaust is really bad on these cars, and I plan on porting it as deep as I can go, especially clearing off some of that bend. What kind of gains should be noticed? more response? better boost response? overall more power?

The specs are in my sig for the t3, so I figured I should do something to the head. I already am having a big fat downpipe made up for the stock turbo too, so I will port the openings on the manifold and finish the head.

Is it safe to assume this is a free 5hp? more? less? more of response than anything? this is the first head ive ever done so I dont expect it to be perfect, but ive done enough reading that I feel confident doing it, not going too crazy to screw up the flow, but porting it equally for a benefit. After all, the way this head was made, STOCK was for no boost, im putting nearly twice the air through it

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Actually... The exh port on these heads is not really that bad.
It flows about 75% of the intake which is pretty much where it should be.
My advice?
Don't remove a lot of material. Clean it up, and don't go by the exh. gasket. There are a nunber of different ones, and each one is a different size.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:55 am 
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it was identical to the one I took off anyways. felpro.

its flowing significantly more than if it were n/a , I want it to get out there as soon as possible, and both the manifold and the head are going to be to the gasket.

we'll see win or lose either way

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:02 am 
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swift13b wrote:
it was identical to the one I took off anyways. felpro.

its flowing significantly more than if it were n/a , I want it to get out there as soon as possible, and both the manifold and the head are going to be to the gasket.

we'll see win or lose either way

You are determined to find out the hard way aren't you??? I mean that in the nicest possible way but there are a lot of guys on this site trying to answer your millions of questions over the last few months and you then choose to ignore the advice of these people who have 'been there, done that' before.

In regards to head porting, there's a lot more to it that just cfm.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:52 am 
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Dattman wrote:
swift13b wrote:
it was identical to the one I took off anyways. felpro.

its flowing significantly more than if it were n/a , I want it to get out there as soon as possible, and both the manifold and the head are going to be to the gasket.

we'll see win or lose either way

You are determined to find out the hard way aren't you??? I mean that in the nicest possible way but there are a lot of guys on this site trying to answer your millions of questions over the last few months and you then choose to ignore the advice of these people who have 'been there, done that' before.

In regards to head porting, there's a lot more to it that just cfm.



So true. Many people who get into porting without any real idea of where they are going actually end up losing power from their work due to flow issues and turbulence effects in the air. Not only that but the shape and slope and angle of the ports can make a huge difference. Good luck.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:45 pm 
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you make it sound like im the one adking for people help all the time, and then you say im ignoring it? I was already going to be doing this port job and so far im pretty impressed with the way its come out so far, just 2 hours in using a cutter. I havent brought out the stones yet, but port 1 is gasket matched, 2 is nearly there and 3 was just a little bit I grinded when I was changing from my worn out bit to the new one. Im just looking at improving it once it exits, dont tell me porting the head wont have any gains. yes if you do it wrong it could cause more turbulence that the increase of flow would help, just because its my first cylhead doesnt mean I dont have confidence enough after reading to know what im doing.

The intake was very simple, just a minor amount of material removed, and matched to gasket.

maybe ill learn the hard way when I go replace gasket next time, or maybe ill just buy a felpro again. Either way, the old busted ass gasket and my new one are identical and fit without flaw. the only flaw is the manifold and head itself.

heres about 2 hours in, dont feel like doing more today, ill bust out the stones and what not later, but for now it was just material removal

Image
Image
Image
Image

and no, when I marked them I didnt just lay the gasket down like in the pics


edit: I was mostly shaving off the material on the one side, because of the way the exhaust travels theres like 2 parts for it to collide with, I figure the less metal is in the way to collide with the better. Im not porting really deep so it wont have too much of an effect, itll just breathe better in high revs on boost. Im sure of it, even if I half dont know what im doing, I know enough

AAANddd, im not going directly up to the face of the port on the head, I will do that on the manifold. if you have small -> big you are ok, but if the head opening is bigger than the manifold (or even the port if someone facked up) youll have some problems. Its pretty hard to mess up the intake, its just straight in, so a simple match took about an hour for all 3 ports.

The straight the exhaust can come out though, the less restrictive itll be. I also know that turbulence is the #1 cause for a bad head job. im paying attention to what im doing to

im not here to defend myself or start a fight with people who have obviously been tuning these cars for longer than me, im just saying dont underestimate me. Im doin what I think will benefit me, if it doesnt, then teamswift has results to go by. dont knock the idea either way, ive done many hours of reading and playing with a lawnmower head to say I have fair experience enough to try it on my 3cyl

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:18 am 
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Based on what I read before porting my head, the gasket end of the ports are the least restrictive part and won't make much difference. I assumed Suzuki knew more about port shapes than I did, so I basically removed what I thought were casting defects, mostly near the valves. I left the intake ports kinda rough, and got the exhaust ports and combustion chambers as shiny as I could to keep carbon from sticking. And I cut the little brass jets flush with the intake ports. I made no attempt to match the ports to the manifolds, they looked pretty close on my engine.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=21163

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:34 am 
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well we can just hope there is an improvement right

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:52 am 
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use the term 'porting' lightly. that looks like gasket matching to me. gasket matching does not equal porting.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:57 am 
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true enough, porting would indicate increasing the size of the ports everywhere. Im more so porting the exhaust though, ill try to do what I can to make the gasses have the easiest way out, thats all im trying to do with this.

What gains do I see from something like this? im not expecting huge hp increase, but maybe responsiveness or top end power? its the first head really that ive touched for automotive purposes. doing those singhe grooves too, just for the sake of it

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:17 pm 
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I doubt your butt dyno will notice much outcome from this kind of activicty. You might get a little top end but I doubt it, at least not enough that you'll notice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:17 pm 
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You won't notice any difference from that mod, And you will increase the risk of flow interference when installing the manifold back. The ports are smaller to avoid a step due to slight difference in position between both manifold ports and head ports.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Caaarlo wrote:
You won't notice any difference from that mod, And you will increase the risk of flow interference when installing the manifold back. The ports are smaller to avoid a step due to slight difference in position between both manifold ports and head ports.


I will be doing the manifold too, as you can kinda see by these -2more hours into it- pics that they arent totally up to the size of the manifold, I will do that on the manifold itself, but go TO port size.

who knows, maybe itll hurt performance, but honestly, from what Ive learned and understand, im making concious enough decisions on what to do, not just weeeeee dremelllll!!!

anyways... hope 2 more hours and itll be done, this is as far as im "porting" it, mostly just making it look easier for it to flow out of, this was all done with the cutter, not im going to stones and going to finish it up

first pic was just after I finished "sizing" the 3rd port (from where I left off)
pic 2/3 are of how far I went in and of how rough it still is

Image
Image
Image


:oops: flame away?

edit: and boy, porting the head is one thing, but then grinding smooth your grooves and making them all even. wishin I hadnt gone this far. but ill get it done, and hope for the best. no flowbench, so its all going by eye and feel (which im pretty good at, but in terms of cfm its useless obviously) but its looking muuuch better

my back is sore lol

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:50 pm 
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Image

I think its starting to look good. will post results for sure. though im sure itll be hard to tell how much of an improvement since a) im increasing compression b) rebuilding everything c) fixing/cleaning head d) big fat downpipe

but ill let you know if anything bad happens ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:25 pm 
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With the exhaust - isn't it recommended to leave the head a tad smaller than the manifold (or to have the manifold a tad larger than the port) so that there is a step? Something about reversion?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:56 pm 
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fordem wrote:
With the exhaust - isn't it recommended to leave the head a tad smaller than the manifold (or to have the manifold a tad larger than the port) so that there is a step? Something about reversion?


yes, head a tad smaller than manifold, and I am already ontop of that

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:41 am 
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I ripped apart a 1978 Honda 750 for the aluminum three days ago and the ports were tiny. The factory designed the ports with about 3/8ths of an inch x an inch at the smallest area. I'm betting that was for velocity. The tach was good to 8000 rpm, so they still flowed at high rpm, but not as good as they could. But it was built to be a fast daily driver, not a race bike.

High flow = high rpm, done correctly. Fast flow = great response and good all around performance.

High velocity also means high flow, until the ports reach Mach 1, or the speed of sound. Then you choke off the airflow. That usually happens at high rpms.

Moral of the story? Very small changes make a huge difference in performance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:08 am 
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crazyman wrote:
High velocity also means high flow, until the ports reach Mach 1, or the speed of sound. Then you choke off the airflow. That usually happens at high rpms.

Moral of the story? Very small changes make a huge difference in performance.


The best designs keep air speed below 0.5 mach.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:53 pm 
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caaarlo any negative critisism on what ive done? Mostly only enlarged half the exhaust chamber, I dont feel comfortable enough going in there another way with the dremel and maybe messing something else up.

The closest ive gotten to messing up is the leftest exhaust port, the right side of it nearly matches the gasket, I meant to leave some space all around on all of them but atleast it hasnt gotten past the gasket yet, gotta be real careful when sanding/polishing that side up.

I want to know if these 7 some hours put into this is going to net me ANY gain

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:17 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Actually... The exh port on these heads is not really that bad.
It flows about 75% of the intake which is pretty much where it should be.
My advice?
Don't remove a lot of material. Clean it up, and don't go by the exh. gasket. There are a nunber of different ones, and each one is a different size.


Teamswift's number one authority on these engines gave you some advice pretty early on to save you a lot of time and effort.
Your can always take more metal out but it's rather difficult to put it back in...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:21 pm 
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well thats all nice and all, but thats not what I was after

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:06 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
caaarlo any negative critisism on what ive done? Mostly only enlarged half the exhaust chamber, I dont feel comfortable enough going in there another way with the dremel and maybe messing something else up.


No, that's not so bad, but also, I don't think it's any good. You're messing with the less sensitive area. Any change there, will be barely noticeable, at best.

The most sensitive areas are the ones closer to the valve seat, where you can optimize both the combustion chamber surrounding the seat (deshrouding) and also the mismatch between the seat and the port, which often have a restrictive step. And, of course, the valve seat itself, but can't be done manually.

The rest is just a matter of improving surface finish and cast imperfections.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:13 pm 
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I will go a little inside there at the valve and do the singhe grooves too. I wish I was more experienced

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:24 pm 
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I removed some material by the valve seat and made it as smooth as possible (there was even a little lip cast into there)

but before I get to those, I was getting to this:
Image
Image
that was after grinding down the main grooves

then some more stoning, it feels smooth but doesnt look anything like mirror... sandpaper is next in here
Image

so I got tired of doing those ports so I moved on towards the valve seat and I see what you are talking about, I just improved it a little, not so much ported, but it is a little wider than stock, I cant get all the way down there for the first little bend, and I cant go from the other port, so there is a somewhat untouched section inside the head here. atleast its smoother coming out of the combustion chamber
Image
Image
Image

I would reaaaaaaly like to stop doing this now :twisted: but hopefully another hours worth of work and itll be done, im tired of doing this and this is the last head im gonna touch lol. Just keeping the ports equal is a big thing without a proper flow bench. I go all by feel but ive done a damn good job of picking up minor adjustments that needed to be done, so id say everything is 95% accurate between the ports, which is good enough for me, and good enough to still call an improvement.


this was the intake side I did before:
Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:24 pm 
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I tried to do a before and after thing but kinda forgot, too bad the camera is kinda shitty, but the 3rd pic is the one I havent put the fine sander too. it has sure come a long way and im impressed with the way it looks, it feels as smooth as putting your finger against a dinnerplate.
Image
Image
and
Image

Image



sure come a long way from having all the cuts n stuff in it. about 8-9 hours in it now..... and this is only with 3 cylinders!

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