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 Post subject: Stiffer engine mounts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:51 am 
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This is what you get when you combine a rear engine mount, two hockey pucks, and a sledgehammer. :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:56 am 
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interesting. have you tested it in your car yet?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:58 am 
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Frick now the Canadian secret is out! :D
careful the NHL don't come after you for royalties. :razz:

good job man.
let us know how it feels.
Like hittin a slapshot when shiftin gears. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:01 am 
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Bozo the crying clown

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No offense, but what does that do for you, other than making your driveline have less give?

A pretty cool makeshift part, they are 20 bux new....


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:50 pm 
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jimmyjr wrote:
No offense, but what does that do for you, other than making your driveline have less give?

A pretty cool makeshift part, they are 20 bux new....


Ever had the front wheels hop in a fast start?

It's caused by the give in the drive train, the mounts, so to speak, wind up, the wheel starts to spin and the mounts unwind - put tremendous shock loading on the transmission.

Stiffer mounts have less wind up, you can actually keep the rubber on the road, I don't guarantee it will grip, but it won't hop, and you WILL get off the line faster.

The disdvantages are that the stiffer mounts transmit more vibration from the engine into the body shell, making the car a little noisier and harsher, you might have to increase the idle 100 rpm or so to get it to smooth out, but all in all, an inexpensive, effective modification.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:29 am 
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I can't try it yet, the car's not currently drivable. I'll try to remember to update when I put it in. I'd like to thank Saturn for giving away hockey pucks at the autoshow. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:44 pm 
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Bozo the crying clown

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Wheel hop isn't so critical in my 53 horsepower "screamer".
I'd be concerned that it'd cause driveline problems in the long term. (from harder/jerkier shifting)

Good luck with it it and keep us posted. :-)



Jimmy


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:31 pm 
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You think stiffer engine mounts cause harder/jerkier shifting ? :huh:

How hard or jerky you shift depends on one thing - YOU

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:41 pm 
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I'm jerky to begin with, so I guess that's probably why I'd think something like that.

On that train of thought:

My shocks and springs seem kinda bouncy. If I took 'em out and replaced them with solid metal tubing, what do you think would happen?
I do, after all, ONLY drive on smoothe roads. =)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Well - if you want to go to extremes - I can oblige - around here, on race cars, we don't use rubber engine mounts, we bolt the engine straight into the chassis, the rubber has a way of tearing apart.

Hockey pucks are going to have a little more give than those solid steel mounts.

Next up - I need you to go pull your transmission and take a look at your clutch - in the clutch plate, driven plate, friction plate - what ever name you know it by, you're going to see a number of springs - probably four - they're going to be about 3/4" long, maybe 1/2" diameter, and sort of embedded in the clutch, you can only see the sides - it can be kind of hard to figure out what they're for - but I'm going to help you out - those springs are essentially what connect the inner disk with the splines that drives the gearbox input shaft, to the outer disks that have the linings riveted to them.

Those springs are there for one reason and one reason only - to cushion the shock when you drop the clutch. Rubber engine mounts are not there for that reason. Rubber is used in engine mounts to reduce the vibration and harshness that would otherwise be transmitted into the body shell and make the vehicle very unpleasant to drive.

Next - I have seen at least one race car - with a manual transmission AND NO CLUTCH - I kid you not, it had a dog box, and it started from the back of the grid, with a pickup truck behind it. Push it up to speed, bang the transmission into low and hold tight.

Last but not least - look around the forum - use the search feature - find out just how popular polyurethane engine mounts and suspension bushings are, along with stiffer spring and better shocks - the idea is to minimize the unwanted flex, and improve performance and handling.

You probably though it was a weird idea - but it's not - it's a very simple, very effective mod - better yet, this one cost only the time - he didn't even pay for the pucks - other folks have paid 60~70 bucks for theirs.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:41 pm 
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fordem wrote:
Well - if you want to go to extremes - I can oblige - around here, on race cars, we don't use rubber engine mounts, we bolt the engine straight into the chassis, the rubber has a way of tearing apart.

Hockey pucks are going to have a little more give than those solid steel mounts.

Next up - I need you to go pull your transmission and take a look at your clutch - in the clutch plate, driven plate, friction plate - what ever name you know it by, you're going to see a number of springs - probably four - they're going to be about 3/4" long, maybe 1/2" diameter, and sort of embedded in the clutch, you can only see the sides - it can be kind of hard to figure out what they're for - but I'm going to help you out - those springs are essentially what connect the inner disk with the splines that drives the gearbox input shaft, to the outer disks that have the linings riveted to them.

Those springs are there for one reason and one reason only - to cushion the shock when you drop the clutch. Rubber engine mounts are not there for that reason. Rubber is used in engine mounts to reduce the vibration and harshness that would otherwise be transmitted into the body shell and make the vehicle very unpleasant to drive.

Next - I have seen at least one race car - with a manual transmission AND NO CLUTCH - I kid you not, it had a dog box, and it started from the back of the grid, with a pickup truck behind it. Push it up to speed, bang the transmission into low and hold tight.

Last but not least - look around the forum - use the search feature - find out just how popular polyurethane engine mounts and suspension bushings are, along with stiffer spring and better shocks - the idea is to minimize the unwanted flex, and improve performance and handling.

You probably though it was a weird idea - but it's not - it's a very simple, very effective mod - better yet, this one cost only the time - he didn't even pay for the pucks - other folks have paid 60~70 bucks for theirs.


damn fordem, you sure fixed his wagon. lol. also worth noting for another reason for this mod is actually to help shifting itself. ever been on it really hard for whatever reason and tried to shift from second to third? ever succeed? lol. well, beein that these cars use rods to connect the shifter to the tranny instead of cables like in most newer cars, when you go to shift under alot of load, the engine (and thus tranny because they are obviously bolted together) rotate the small amount that the factory soft mounts allow. thats enough to cause you some troublegetting into third and maybe even 5th under heavy load.

greg

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:16 am 
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fordem wrote:
jimmyjr wrote:
No offense, but what does that do for you, other than making your driveline have less give?

A pretty cool makeshift part, they are 20 bux new....


Ever had the front wheels hop in a fast start?

It's caused by the give in the drive train, the mounts, so to speak, wind up, the wheel starts to spin and the mounts unwind - put tremendous shock loading on the transmission.

Stiffer mounts have less wind up, you can actually keep the rubber on the road, I don't guarantee it will grip, but it won't hop, and you WILL get off the line faster.

The disdvantages are that the stiffer mounts transmit more vibration from the engine into the body shell, making the car a little noisier and harsher, you might have to increase the idle 100 rpm or so to get it to smooth out, but all in all, an inexpensive, effective modification.

vibration and noise...cruising @ 100km/h can be quite audious for long journeys and with the airconditioning or engine loads turned on the car vibrates more....


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:13 am 
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Bozo the crying clown

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:19 am
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Location: Chester County PA
Well....When I decide to drive my car 1/4 mile at a time, I'll switch to solid motor mounts.
For my daily driver, I'll keep the stock rubber ones.

(still good as a makeshift part in a pinch, though)


and you need to slow down some, son. I think the sun is getting to you.



P.S. Thanks for explaining how a clutch works. I was ALWAYS curious about that. DOUCHE :roll:

Jimmy


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:41 pm 
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jimmyjr wrote:
P.S. Thanks for explaining how a clutch works. I was ALWAYS curious about that. DOUCHE :roll:

Jimmy



Says the douche who didn't know what the original mod was for in the first place :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:58 am 
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I had the solid engine mount on my daily driven Metro. There is a good deal more noise but the throttle response seemed crisper, the shifting was easier, and there a lot less wheel hop.

I later cored a hole in the solid mount and put in a small rubber leaf spring bushing for just a little vibration dampening.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Metropwr wrote:
I had the solid engine mount on my daily driven Metro. There is a good deal more noise but the throttle response seemed crisper, the shifting was easier, and there a lot less wheel hop.

I later cored a hole in the solid mount and put in a small rubber leaf spring bushing for just a little vibration dampening.

shoudla put a cam in it instead :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Metropwr wrote:
I had the solid engine mount on my daily driven Metro. There is a good deal more noise but the throttle response seemed crisper, the shifting was easier, and there a lot less wheel hop.

I later cored a hole in the solid mount and put in a small rubber leaf spring bushing for just a little vibration dampening.


Personally I think the problem with the standard mounts (and the main suspension pivot bushings for the matter) is the spaces or voids in the rubber - if they had done it as a solid chunk of rubber it would work just as well

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:33 pm 
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so is this why when i pop the clutch to attempt a burn out the front wheels 'hop' ? and so a stiffer engine mount is going to make my burnouts look less lame, right ?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:24 pm 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
so is this why when i pop the clutch to attempt a burn out the front wheels 'hop' ? and so a stiffer engine mount is going to make my burnouts look less lame, right ?

well power helps make it a little less lame too ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:39 pm 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
so is this why when i pop the clutch to attempt a burn out the front wheels 'hop' ? and so a stiffer engine mount is going to make my burnouts look less lame, right ?


It's the most likely cause - if you're still running the OEM engine mounts.

I have polyurethane engine mounts (all three) plus polyurethane at the main pivots in the suspension - prior to the poly mounts, I would get violent wheel hop on a fast start (especially if I was turning, say from a standstill on a minor road into a gap in moving traffic on a major road) - and that did a number on the teeth in the differential (pics in my album) - with the poly mounts, the wheels stay on the ground - I probably could do a decent burnout, but that's not quite my style, it's kinda like just burning money.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:27 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
Metropwr wrote:
I had the solid engine mount on my daily driven Metro. There is a good deal more noise but the throttle response seemed crisper, the shifting was easier, and there a lot less wheel hop.

I later cored a hole in the solid mount and put in a small rubber leaf spring bushing for just a little vibration dampening.

shoudla put a cam in it instead :twisted:


I did put a cam in it, a pretty big one! :D

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:47 pm 
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That hockey puck mod is interesting!

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