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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:15 pm 
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Location: Saskatchewan
Would you do it? Is it worth it? The motor is forge built with supercharger, nitrous and cams, and a good rotating assembly is on my list to do.

I have not ordered pistons yet, and suzukird is increasingly hard to get ahold of I figure I would ask you guys as im a balance noob.

The motor is going to have an aluminum flywheel and pulley, using the stock ac to drive sc. Bike response would be hot, and thats what im after. Ive seen a stock crank/rods hold up to well over the 250whp I could be making on the bottle, but how good is it? Ill be throwing rod/main/head bolts in too but as for balancing the bottom end or "blueprinting" ive heard people use too. I was planning on buying the pistons from them too (10.5 or 11 comp forged 76mm) is it not neccesary to balance the pistons aswell? How DO they balance and lighten them? just remove material all around and weigh it and hope its the same or do they have special equipment to do this properly.

I just dont want to do something that could be either not neccesary or bad. They say 25% lighter, that sounds good and all, but are they 25% weaker? if not 25, 10%? im confused at this point but im takin a big loan to finish this motor up.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:21 pm 
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crank would also be knife edged
my stock 3cyl crank
Image
Image
(not what I was showing in the pictures, but see how thick it is)

Image


rods
Image

they look great to me, all shiny n stuff, and both done for 600 bucks. If its good ill do it, and hold off on the juice kit till I would have had the extra 600 to spend.

Quote:
http://suzukird1.netfirms.com/62pro/catalog/images/srd_76mm_HiComp_pistons.jpg

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Do a search on these things as they've all been covered. The SRD stuff looks nice but getting a crank knife edged can usualy be done localy by a machine shop/engine builder. I'n not really sure i'd feel comfortable with removing material from our rods to make them lighter. Definetly other options out there. Please just search around the forum a bit and you'll find a TON of info on engine mods.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:45 am 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
I've used a triple beam balance for all my piston assemblies (remember chemistry class?).
Usually get them within a hundredth of gram.
You can buy a balance for less than $100. Much cheaper than sending them out.
Grind the caps.
The engine idles like glass.

Everyone laughed at me when I 'borrowed' the balance from class and used it on a 1951 Chevy 235 6 cylinder 2-ton truck some 20 years ago. I returned the balance, and eventually bought my own, and don't use it for drugs :twisted:

That engine is still running smooth, and a nickel will still stand on edge while the puppy is idling. Great way to win beer bets.

And if you think I'm blowing smoke, just imagine there are diesel trucks which are also that smooth at idle.

Again, not trying to offend. Just stating a fact.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 pm 
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so how did you remove material? just with a dremel carefully around the outside and stuff?
I considered doing stuff like that and polish them up and remove any cast imperfections, but were you able to remove much weight or was it just a balance thing?

As for the crank, you figure a local shop in my bumfuck town would be able to do it? What are some opinions on that? removing excess crank mass = good or bad? How does that affect the life of it? And should I be worried with a light flywheel/pulley as a balancer? Ive NEVER done engines like this before, just tear and rebuild a bunch.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:52 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
so how did you remove material? just with a dremel carefully around the outside and stuff?
I considered doing stuff like that and polish them up and remove any cast imperfections, but were you able to remove much weight or was it just a balance thing?

As for the crank, you figure a local shop in my bumfuck town would be able to do it? What are some opinions on that? removing excess crank mass = good or bad? How does that affect the life of it? And should I be worried with a light flywheel/pulley as a balancer? Ive NEVER done engines like this before, just tear and rebuild a bunch.


Your picture of the rods: at the bottom, if you look, you will see some raised letters; casting letters. Just use a grinding wheel, and make them all match your lightest assembly. By assembly, I mean you put the piston, rings, rods, caps, bolts, and nuts all together. Nuts can be finger tight.
Next week or two I'll post pictures of my next engine.

Suzuki really matches their piston assemblies well. They are usually only 3 or 4 grams different, at most. So you don't have to grind much. Never had a dremel. But you could post even closer weights that my clumsy method.

I can get them within a 1.5 cm square sheet of thin paper's weight apart with no problem.
Thing is to not wimp out. If you have to grind a little metal, then grind it. You won't weaken the cap.

Some reading this will probably not like it; it is a static balance job; a fellow in Germany has a great site with pictures on how to dynamically balance engines, but for most of us on a 'shoestring budget' a static balance provides noticable results with minimal effort and minimal expense.
It really doesn't add but 15 mins or so to your rebuild. That's why our parents sent us to school, right?... to learn. Just apply that knowlege to real life.

Now on your crank, you will have to consult a professional machinist. That mass has to be balanced on an expensive machine. So if you start grinding on it, prepare to pay some big bucks.

With your flywheel: I know you are dealing with some of the cleverest fellows in Canada...Jardamuth, for one. You stick with what they say, for they have a lot more experience with these engines than most of us. They can be your best friend. Just go back and read some of their posts. That way you aren't making them repeat themselves. They have the education and the experience.

Your 'bumflit' town is like many throughout the world; a great place to be. The machinist will provide you with excellent information. You might stop by with some beer near closing time and ask him/them some questions. Sometimes they send things out for balancing. They can get your brain started.

Just wait til I do my next engine, and you will see. Hopefully I'll post a DIY 'cheapo' engine balance thread with pictures. We can all sit back and laugh...but I bet a bunch of guys will try it. Like I said, your engines do idle like glass.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:10 pm 
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wont idle like glass with big lumpy cams but less rotational mass = quicker rev response. Nothing like a built sc 1.3 suzuki that has the response of a bike, its a bit of a long shot, but each and every mod gets closer and closer.

The pistons wont be factory though, forged 10.5's or 11's from suzukird more than likely but I would think they do a good job of it. they have forged pistons and they have superlightweight forged pistons for like 40bucks more a slug. shouldnt I weigh each piston seperately, get them to within a close spec, then do the same to the rods, then verify it with the slugs on the rods?

as for the crank, suzukird will do the machining for like 400 bucks (without shipping either way) so I wonder if the machine shop that does my bores has a machine for something like that. I imagine its not your typical lathe

ill apologize in advance for the lack of research ive done on the board, theres alot going on right now and im just trying to get things straight, I appreciate the comments.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:54 pm 
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Sorry, I have been tied up with that silly girls car for my wife.
I promise to post a DIY engine balance as soon as I get the rings and bearings for the 85 2 door that I am working on.
It's really easy, and you'll have the smoothest idling engine on the block!
(Unless you cam it)

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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:05 pm 
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but atleast a properly balanced engine is more rev happy and less likely to fail.... unless too much material is removed... right?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Yep, don't remove too much material.
Try and 'dremel' lightly and evenly starting at the top of the cap; bottoms up!
It's not rocket science.
Like I said, I'll show you one in a few weeks, I hope.

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DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:07 pm 
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with a dremel??

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Location: Kitchener, ON
Just want to add that 'knife-edging' a crank is a gimmick. If you want to reduce your cranks moment of inertia, you need to shave all the bob-weights down then re-balance by adding heavy-metal if needed. Knife-edging by itself won't accomplish any more than just a straight shave. In fact, it should achieve less.

If you want to reduce windage, you could have the weights machined like an airfoil, but then a crank-scraper is less effective.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Weather here is cloudy & humid with thunder.
However, I did get the rings and bearings, so FINALLY you can look for a DIY engine balancing thread from me...cleaned the pistons, just waiting for some hot weather to make sure they're good and dry...maybe by Labor Day.

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DIY Clutch Adjustment: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48281
DIY Wheel Bearings: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29003
DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Phil N Ed wrote:
Weather here is cloudy & humid with thunder.
However, I did get the rings and bearings, so FINALLY you can look for a DIY engine balancing thread from me...cleaned the pistons, just waiting for some hot weather to make sure they're good and dry...maybe by Labor Day.

id be interested to see how this works and how much time you plan on dedicating. how much % weight do you think you can actually remove? 25%? will it be bad for a powerful motor to be lightened? how do you balance it properly? have a machine shop do it on a lathe with the rods/pistons on it?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:33 pm 
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martinq wrote:
Just want to add that 'knife-edging' a crank is a gimmick. If you want to reduce your cranks moment of inertia, you need to shave all the bob-weights down then re-balance by adding heavy-metal if needed. Knife-edging by itself won't accomplish any more than just a straight shave. In fact, it should achieve less.

If you want to reduce windage, you could have the weights machined like an airfoil, but then a crank-scraper is less effective.




I was under the impression that knife edging was to decrease windage? The theory being that the knife edge will create less turbulence as it cuts through the oil in the pan. Wouldn't machining them like an airfoil cause more drag and lateral load on the crank from the "lift" created by the airfoil shaped crank?

I'm no F1 mechanic, but what i'm saying makes sense to me.

Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:44 pm 
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l4mbch0ps wrote:
I was under the impression that knife edging was to decrease windage? The theory being that the knife edge will create less turbulence as it cuts through the oil in the pan. Wouldn't machining them like an airfoil cause more drag and lateral load on the crank from the "lift" created by the airfoil shaped crank?

By 'knife edging' all you are doing is changing the cross-sectional shape from a rectangle (with a blunt edge) to a triangle (with a blunt edge). You are putting the knifes edge in the wrong place. To reduce 'windage' you're really trying to reduce drag by eliminating turbulence, and the best way to do this is by utilizing an airfoil (streamlined) shape; a rounded leading edge followed by a long tapered trailing edge.

I'm not sure where the trade offs lie with reduced turbulence vs a crank-scrapers effectiveness, but I don't see why the airfoil shape would not be close to ideal. Note that reducing the cross-sectional area will also reduce drag, but combining this (by just machining the down the OD) with some airfoil shaping should produce a better result.

There is an example on: http://www.ffwdconnection.com/butchercrank.shtml (mind the babeoftheday pic halfway down for those at work)

Image
Image

Aerodynamic Drag: http://insideracingtechnology.com/tech102drag.htm

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:13 am 
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Fiatnutz on youtube has some great informative videos. His name is John from Costa Mesa R&D machine shop.

One such video is about cutting a SMALL groove in the top of each side of the big end of the rod so that a small stream of oil shoots at the bottom of the piston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wuNuuEoN7Y

I've dreamt up too many ultra dollar builds to even count. Haven't built any. So just do what you need to to make it live, and to make it perform to what level you NEED it to. My twin pennies. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:17 pm 
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for what its worth, Ive started to lighten my t3 rods. Does anyone know what the weight of the n/a rods are? I got between 421 and 422 for these 3 and my goal was under 400. And I got like 397g so far, which is only like a 6% reduction but ill be aiming to have all 3 at around 395. I dont have n/a rods without pistons or anything by themselves right now so I cant weight the difference, but even taking as much material off as I did, this is about as far as I feel comfortable. How can SRD claim a 25% reduction in weight?

I will post pictures as I go along, I have an accurate digital scale so all 3 rods will be within 0.1g. I had over 1g difference between the rods I believe.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:33 pm 
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by "started to lighten" I meant as a test, ive got like 10 of these rods lying around and really only need 3 of them, so whats taking one out of the loop if I wreck it? just wanted to see what I could do with it really, but I dont know if im satisfied in grinding up these rods for a mere 25g loss (422.6g vs 397.7g) at this point I dont know if this is any better than a stock n/a rod (and maybe weighs more) I just had some time to spare yesterday. I could grab 3 of my rods and spend maybe 15 mins (that was about an hour to drop 25grams, and its not totally done but I dont know if I want to do it anymore LOL) making them equal at 420grams, just smoothing the castings and what. the bottom end is getting balanced at the machine shop, I just mostly want to static balance the rods. lightening doesnt seem worth it. 30gx3, save 90grams of mass with over 3 hours of work? for what? I dont even know what I was doing when I put the grinder to this just messin around heh

Image
Image
Image
Image

heh, so I shouldnt use a set of rods that look like that right? =)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:18 pm 
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That rod look's about as good as I feel right now...

:vibe:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:45 pm 
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yeah haha, good thing I had spares and didnt touch the other ones. just messin around but at the end of things, its garbage

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:50 pm 
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I think you should do some reading about engine building/balancing before you go any further. It looks like you're trying to solve a problem that you don't have and creating vulgar sculpture in the process.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:33 am 
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When grinding a rod you must always grind with a rotory tool and only grind up and down, never sideways and for better results focus on smoothing the rods not lightning them, get rid of the casting lines, may not lighten them alot but they will be stronger and the oil will run of of them quicker, and never remove H beams, the key is to keep the grain going up and down, hope this makes sense.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:38 am 
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yeah im not going to use rods like that, just 3 that are within 0.1g

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