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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:32 am 
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Justintoxicated wrote:
Right on Caps are only needed to help provide a faster burst of power on really high power systems.



No. That is not what a cap is designed to do. They are not designed to be used as a miniature battery/voltage supply. They are marketed that way but its sole design is to smooth voltage ripples (small ones and not the huge ones we get from large amplifiers) passing through the line. Think of them as a big high pass crosover on your power wire.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:20 am 
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m wrote:
Justintoxicated wrote:
Right on Caps are only needed to help provide a faster burst of power on really high power systems.



No. That is not what a cap is designed to do. They are not designed to be used as a miniature battery/voltage supply. They are marketed that way but its sole design is to smooth voltage ripples (small ones and not the huge ones we get from large amplifiers) passing through the line. Think of them as a big high pass crosover on your power wire.


You know what your right, my bad. But the battery should do this anyways. So your saying purely to clean up signal / ripple in voltage, thats kinda the same as providing a burst of clean power though isnt it? (getting rid of small drops in voltage (ripples?). But I guess the point your trying to make is that they are supposed to make an already good electrical system better, not band aid problems with an existing electrical system, which is what I was trying but quite obviously failed to say correctly :P. Anyways I think I'll stick with buying larger batteries than dealing with caps.

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Last edited by Justintoxicated on Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:30 am 
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Justintoxicated wrote:
thats kinda the same as providing a burst of clean power though isnt it? (getting rid of small drops in voltage (ripples?).



The problem is that the cap is designed to smooth say a .25V ripple and people are using them to try and smooth a 3V+ drop.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:11 am 
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m wrote:
Justintoxicated wrote:
thats kinda the same as providing a burst of clean power though isnt it? (getting rid of small drops in voltage (ripples?).



The problem is that the cap is designed to smooth say a .25V ripple and people are using them to try and smooth a 3V+ drop.


Do you think an HID conversion would help with diming headlights? They typicaly use less power, but I would hate to burn up the ballasts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:32 am 
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I think it would be better to solve the voltage issue first. HID's will definetly use less power but I'm willing to bet that if you turn your headlights off and run the system hard you will still see voltage drop.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:01 pm 
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m wrote:
Justintoxicated wrote:
Right on Caps are only needed to help provide a faster burst of power on really high power systems.



No. That is not what a cap is designed to do. They are not designed to be used as a miniature battery/voltage supply. They are marketed that way but its sole design is to smooth voltage ripples (small ones and not the huge ones we get from large amplifiers) passing through the line. Think of them as a big high pass crosover on your power wire.


They will do either one. You do need to match the size of the capacitor to what you're asking it to do though. But if you're drawing more than your electrical system can reasonable supply then you definatly need to upgrade wiring, alt, batt, ect. But if all you're electrical system needs is a little help then I think the right cap would do the trick.
Also, you can save yourself a lot of work and money by just going with a smaller amp. Years ago I put the cheapest system you've every seen in my volkswagon bug. Wal-mart 6x9's, old 8 inch paper subs, cheap stereo, cheap eq-amp (also walmart). The subs were in boxes jammed against the back seat. The 6x9's were mounted in a homemade rear dash but I put silver covers over them so you couldn't see that they weren't the latest and greatest. Everyone thought the system was a lot more expensive than it really was but I think it was because I wasn't overdriving it. And they couldn't see most of the system so they couldn't decide what it sounded like before they did. That and there's a whole lot of people who think you need huge power and big name brands to have a good sound and it's just not true. You can help cheaper speakers by mounting them right. You can help cheaper amps by giving them a little help with the right capacitor. Ect. ect. I'm always more impressed when I see more done with less. Anybody with the money can just go and start replacing everything and have a good result.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:15 pm 
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its a matter of clean signal, good power and good voice coils. thats all really, you can put any drivers in any system and itll sound good aslong as the power is clean but the more you spend the stronger and harder you can pump them.

not disagreeing with cheap shit sounding good though, but you need to do it right, and sometimes it just doesnt work

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:01 pm 
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airguard1318 wrote:
But if all you're electrical system needs is a little help then I think the right cap would do the trick.


Keep thinking that. Audio companies want you to. Its there to smooth the sigal and not supplement it. Capacitors shouldn't even require a recharge from the alternator/battery when used properly...and using them properly means not using them to keep your voltage from dropping. There are as many people for using capacitors as there are people against using them. I'm part of the against group so thats the bias you will get from me. If you think they are helping your system than go for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:14 pm 
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youd need like 100farad for it to be as useful as they claim.

like I said before, its good for smoothing out the ripples of the high and low spikes and gives it more of a "spread spectrum" in cpu terms where its just easier on the electronics not having the voltage move around so much. ideally youd want a system that stays at 14.2volts even with a 1kw load

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:54 pm 
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m wrote:
airguard1318 wrote:
But if all you're electrical system needs is a little help then I think the right cap would do the trick.


Keep thinking that. Audio companies want you to. Its there to smooth the sigal and not supplement it. Capacitors shouldn't even require a recharge from the alternator/battery when used properly...and using them properly means not using them to keep your voltage from dropping. There are as many people for using capacitors as there are people against using them. I'm part of the against group so thats the bias you will get from me. If you think they are helping your system than go for it.


Why would you need to be for or against something as silly as that? If you use one and it works out for you, great. If you don't and want to and solve the issue another way, wonderful. You're acting like this is a discussion about abortion issues. I'm sure you know lots about electronics, but you're not the only one. There is more than one way to skin a cat and you can use a capacitor for anything your little heart desires. There's no rule book that tells you what you can and can't use one for.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:44 pm 
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I think your misunderstanding me. Go into any audio group and ask whether or not a capacitor is good. You will find that you have one group of people that are for using them and you will find another group that are against using them. I'm against it based on what I've learned. As I said in my last post, if you think they work use them and be happy. Its no skin off my back whether you use one or not. I find it interesting that you started your other question with "correct me if I'm wrong" but refuse to take the correction and instead try to educate somebody on why they are wrong. Just an observation....

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:24 pm 
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Problem is even aftermarket alternators don't usualy make much power at low RPM, so the ops best bet may be to turn it down while idleing or buy a alrge battery like a Kinetic, and realize that he is drainging the battery while at low RPM's. First things to try though are upgrading the wiring (Big 3 for starts), using a more efficient amp, Class D is great for efficiency, make sure you ARE NOT CLIPPING THE AMP OR SUB (set gains on the amp properly). Also cheap amps are typicaly not as efficient as more expensive ones. These are all things to try before you go out and buy a cap since that will only stress your electricl parts more by using it as a band aid.

Another thing I see differences in opinion is that the ground wire for the amp should be connected to the battery's. However I strongly believe in making grounds as short as possible unless you are suffering from a ground loop problem.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Justintoxicated wrote:
Another thing I see differences in opinion is that the ground wire for the amp should be connected to the battery's However I strongly believe in making grounds as short as possible.



Grounds are made short to decrease resistance. The argument stems from the difference in resistance between a 15' run of ground cable and the amount of reistance all the spot welds holding the body create. I can't remember what the ultimate verdict was but I seem to recall it favouring running a full length of ground cable. I still run my grounds to the body unless its an insanely powerful amplifier. Never personlay measured the differences though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:26 pm 
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m wrote:
Justintoxicated wrote:
Another thing I see differences in opinion is that the ground wire for the amp should be connected to the battery's However I strongly believe in making grounds as short as possible.



Grounds are made short to decrease resistance. The argument stems from the difference in resistance between a 15' run of ground cable and the amount of reistance all the spot welds holding the body create. I can't remember what the ultimate verdict was but I seem to recall it favouring running a full length of ground cable. I still run my grounds to the body unless its an insanely powerful amplifier. Never personlay measured the differences though.


Possibly in the case of the car but I was told I did a very bad job by running a 3 foot 0ga wire into a seat bolt (which connects directly into the frame of my truck). I was old I should have run 0ga all the way to the battery, which seems ridiculous to have to drill more hole sinto my firewall when I can ground directly into the frame near the distribution block and amps. But each to their own. 2 0ga wires certainly look cooler lol.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Yeah its a mtter of preference. Every car audio shop will ground to the body/frame unless they are told to do full runs. The industry accepts it because cable kits come with a shorter ground wire. Like I said before though...if the amp is very high power I run full length grounds...cheaper than adding a cap and likely works better too :P.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:09 pm 
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m wrote:
Yeah its a mtter of preference. Every car audio shop will ground to the body/frame unless they are told to do full runs. The industry accepts it because cable kits come with a shorter ground wire. Like I said before though...if the amp is very high power I run full length grounds...cheaper than adding a cap and likely works better too :P.


Whats alot of watts im running about 1400

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:31 pm 
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For me anything over 1000W gets full runs. Again though...its personal preference. I know a few people running over 2000WRMS that ground in the back and they are just fine. For a summer I ran a 2000W amp in my old Swift with grounding in the trunk (didn't have extra wire at the time) with no problems. I just find that once your using that kind of componenty you may as well spend the extra few dollars for an extra 10' of wire. I'll be doing a system in my Scion this summer and I'll try to measure the voltage drop of going through the body as opposed to the full run of wire. Could be interesting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:36 pm 
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m wrote:
For me anything over 1000W gets full runs. Again though...its personal preference. I know a few people running over 2000WRMS that ground in the back and they are just fine. For a summer I ran a 2000W amp in my old Swift with grounding in the trunk (didn't have extra wire at the time) with no problems. I just find that once your using that kind of componenty you may as well spend the extra few dollars for an extra 10' of wire. I'll be doing a system in my Scion this summer and I'll try to measure the voltage drop of going through the body as opposed to the full run of wire. Could be interesting.


True but i didn't want to have a bump in my carpet to hide the wire, my channels on the side are full. Havent had any issues though. In fact its not really only 1400 watts cause I also power 2 200 PSi air compressors and a Ham radio all using the same gound. However I still dont det how a 13" piece of 0ga would have less resistance than groudning directly to the frame within 3 feet.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:59 pm 
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Justintoxicated wrote:
m wrote:
However I still dont det how a 13" piece of 0ga would have less resistance than groudning directly to the frame within 3 feet.


Couple of reasons. The wire is made from a metal that has better conductivity. The welds that make up the body/frame have higher resistance. Corrosion makes the resistance higher as well. Thats the argument anyways. As I recal it there were quite a few different articles/threads as to having one done over another.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:45 pm 
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m wrote:
Justintoxicated wrote:
m wrote:
However I still dont det how a 13" piece of 0ga would have less resistance than groudning directly to the frame within 3 feet.


Couple of reasons. The wire is made from a metal that has better conductivity. The welds that make up the body/frame have higher resistance. Corrosion makes the resistance higher as well. Thats the argument anyways. As I recal it there were quite a few different articles/threads as to having one done over another.


But even running to the battery, the wires all ground into the frame so the point seems meh to me, unless your trying to avoid ground loops ... In fact the battery ground is probably not as good as bolting directly into a frame rail. Its simply moutned to a tab that protrudes from the body/frame in the engine compartment.

So I'm using the same 0ga wire only a much much mmuch shorter amount. Corrosion though I'll buy that, I should have put some spark plug grease on it or something, but its less likely to get corroded inside the cab than in the engine compartment.... On the other hand the frame rails on the truck are huge, and the welds on them likely conduct MUCH better than 0ga in any case. But the point is, if the frame is such a bad ground because of welds, then why is the battery grounded to it in the first place?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:49 pm 
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I'm just stating the "for" sides opinion. I don't follow it religiously or anything...just adding another side to the argument.

Justintoxicated wrote:
But the point is, if the frame is such a bad ground because of welds, then why is the battery grounded to it in the first place?



I'm guessing its because almost everything is lower current. Higher current parts like starters are still grounded to the battery with a larger piece of wire. There is also more "noise" running through the body from other electrical components.


Justintoxicated wrote:
But even running to the battery, the wires all ground into the frame


Not sure if Im reading your statement right but if you have a ground from the battery to the amp its a straight path to the battery. The other body grounds won't matter to the amp. It'll just have a straight noise free pipe to the battery.

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