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 Post subject: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Hey guys. I got some 8" speakers I am going to put in my Swift and going to make a kit panel to put them over my sub box in the trunk. I want to know, will it be better to make it in fiberglass and then cover it in leather or can I cover it with leather and forget about it. I have seen both style and heard them and they sound pretty much the same. Thanks a lot. Peace.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:58 pm 
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I dont understand, either you make them out of fiberglass and leather them, or you just leather them? like free air? I dont get it, but if its meant for midbass id say a sealed box within spec will do the best. free air cant go low enough

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:06 am 
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swift13b wrote:
free air cant go low enough



Free air (or infinite baffle) generaly goes lower than anything assuming the space behind the driver is sufficiently braced/dampened. Not necessarily relevant in this case because like you, I don't quite understand what the OP is asking.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:17 am 
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If you mean a kick panel they would go in front not near the sub, this would improve imaging for mid bass. If you mean to use them as subs then i guess anywhere will suffice. If your asking about making boxes for them because they will be in the sub's same compartment I would recomend it. inf baffel is not as good 95% of the time for woffers. For mids I would still enclose them since they will share the same airspace as the sub (I think; if that is what your asking?)

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:37 am 
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The 8" are going to be used as mids. They are going in a kickpanel in the back over the subs. They will be enclosed seperate from the subs. Can't put them anywhere else because it's 6 of them. My question is, Can I wrap the kickpanel with leather and will it sound good over a kick panel made in fiberglass and then wrapped in leather? I have 0 experience with fiberglass so that's why I ask. Also, m, what does op mean?

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:17 am 
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op is original poster, and I still dont understand! you say either build with fiberglass and wrap or just wrap. what the hell are you wrapping then?? leather will do NOTHING for the sound quality of your box lol. and ive never heard a free air mid bass driver sound good and low, guess ive never heard it baffled properly, I just box my shit

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:57 am 
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swift13b wrote:
and ive never heard a free air mid bass driver sound good and low, guess ive never heard it baffled properly, I just box my shit



It's likely because it is a midbass driver. They aren't designed to go really low and only the best of them do. I should have added that generaly speaking your going to see the benefits of a free air setup with subs. Thats why I mentioned it may not necessarily be relevant in this case. Now, most midbass drivers are set up to work in a free air environment (like the inside of a door) for best results. Its not always the case but definetly more often than not. I've taken midbass drivers and dropped them in a ported enclosure with a 50-60Hz tune and they sounded incredible. They didn't do anything under 55ish Hz but they had incredible punch. I've also seen some drivers fall flat on their faces in an enclosure but blew you away when they were dropped in a properly deadened door.


a1989swift:


With 6 8's your definetly going to want a fiberglass enclosure (a kickpanel, BTW, refers to a small enclosure that fits in the kickpanels in the front of the car) or the leather is just going to flap around when the 8's start moving. I'm curious about your system design though. I have a feeling you may be going WAY overkill on the midbass compared to the rest of your system. Your 8's will only be playing from mayby 50-60Hz and up which, with 6 of them, would need a massive sub system and midrange/high to keep up with their output. The last system I saw that used a large number of 8's (I think it was 8 of them) for midbass had over 10Kw of power going to 8 15's.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:48 am 
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swift13b wrote:
you say either build with fiberglass and wrap or just wrap. what the hell are you wrapping then?? leather
That's what I meant.

m wrote:
The last system I saw that used a large number of 8's (I think it was 8 of them) for midbass had over 10Kw of power going to 8 15's.

Well, I have a 2ooo watt amp, 2 12" subs from some old as company called bumper, 2 6 1/2" in the front doors, and 2 big tweeters in the 8" sub box. This system isn't really that big.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:09 am 
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look at it this way then. Each pair of 8's will have roughly the same output as a single 12. With six of them vs your two 12's there will be a huge amount of midbass compared to subbass. With a pair of 6.5's in each door you should have plenty of midbass (assuming your doors are deadened well) up front. IMO adding 6 8's is going to complicate things quite a bit. I'm trying to visualize how your going to fit an enclosure big enough for them on top of the enclosure for the 12's. Even at a half cube of airspace each your still looking at 3 cubes. I'm wondering if you might be better off losing the 12's and just using the 8's as subs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:51 pm 
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NOOOO! 8'' as subs don't work. They don't produce bass with my amp. How about if I use just 4 instead of 6. It will be better right?

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:10 pm 
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why not put two 8's in the front doors, leave your big system in the back and put some quality 4" in the dash? really, I dont know why you think you need so many cones in your car. Are you after spl? or sq? I hope not sq but with all those different sizes of speakers it wont sound so good. For the sq comps I was in before I always ran a quality 12" sub with more than recommended rms (put 700rms to a 500w type r) and mb quart 6.5's one in each door, and an upgraded tweeter, I find mbq's too sharp. My tweets came from a set of old school "hollywood" speakers. I did very good on it, and it still hit 140dbs, with ONE sub. granted I spent as much time building and tuning the box back then as I did spending money. but it gave me awesome experience in box building that I can slap together a half assed box and its still a million times better than some douche who builds a box, throws a port on it and calls it "ported". I ran my type R to 60hz, and had the mbqs come on at 40. granted they didnt play well at 40 in the doors but it gave me a crisp overlap without missing too many frequencies. if I could build THAT system over again, id do it all the same but put an extra set of 6.5s up front. I wouldnt even consider a 10 or a 15. 15s sound like crap and 10s are not strong enough but their response is amazing. the middle ground being a 12. I went up against alot of people with TONS of money and ofcourse I didnt win, but all the other competitors said they liked mine as much as the others. I ran a carputer and a quality sound card through a line driver for these, each front "set" had its own amp (so an amp for left and an amp for right) giving 225w rms to EACH side.

you should consider spending your time and money elsewhere, I dont see why youd want 2 12's and 6 8's. thats just stupid and sounds like some punk kid who wants alot of bass. you are doing it wrong, even 4 8's will outplay the rest of your mids, youll have crisp midbass and lots of guitar, but youll be lacking alot of front stage. I could get into more detail and so could M, I just cant see your reasoning behind this. thats like that one guy on here who wanted to run 10kw and was trying to figure out what alternator to use on a 16v system lol.

sell your 12's and run the 6 8's then, youll get about the same amount of overall bass, maybe not as low but I bet you it would sound alot better, and you could use your amp for your 12's to power them, youll have much better response and proper midbass that the 12's dont hit.

if those 8's are 4 ohm youd have to have an amp stable at 1ohm to run them all in parallel or youll be wiring them some funny way... which I can even think of with an odd "set" of 3. have 2 sets of 3 of them in parallel and run them in series you could get 2ohm.

I dunno man, your crazy not to mention all the collisions and cancellations you are bound to have with that many drivers. I always lol at the highschool kids who put like 4 15's in their car, drop in some deck and run stock speakers, or even upgrade the speakers but dont amp them. I dunno whats with people these days

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:01 am 
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Pfft... real SQ guys run sealed box subs with the proper air volume for tight crisp bass across the spectrum...

8)

But I agree, too many speakers, too many different speakers, and you'll have a sound similar to wet mud, all of them will be sounding slightly different, and that will muddy it all up.

Porting is good if you are after a specific freq range, and want to make your subs hit harder.

My computer speakers run a dual 8" parallel sub setup, and they'll shake the walls.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:37 am 
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I didnt win, but I heard the winners and it wasnt the bass that made it what it was. it was the fact I only spent 700$ on a front stage (speakers and amps) and it still wasnt good enough. Point is, sound quality comes from your stage.

A properly designed box will be better than a sealed. though I do agree sealed's are the best overall sub. most people dont know what they are doing, or the box is really peaky. I dont mind the peaky boxes because you can sure get alot of oomph out of them in the specific range, but a properly designed box will have a rather flat response. especially when you tune a sub with a fs of 35hz and the box at 25. it had great lows and played great up to about 60 when it started to fall off, and my fronts werent powerful enough. I couldnt imagine what that system would sound like coming up to 60, then a bunch of peaky midbass then fade off to a weaker front stage. but wow, some of those guys can sure spend alot of money! bang for buck though, id take mine again over theirs.

too bad it was all stolen
http://www.aww-kittah-aww.com/up/pupload/view/2194
http://www.aww-kittah-aww.com/up/pupload/view/2237

im doing another one of these in the lolswift, goes good with tuning software and gps

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:51 am 
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Money => Skill

Ported and sealed both serve their purposes but just like porting, a box has to be the right size and rigid or it'll make a crap sealed box.

I wouldn't mind a little 10" sub with a sealed box to supplement my 6.5's, just to keep things simple and clean. But the sub I want, is alot of money, and the required amping... :roll: One of these days.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:13 am 
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swift13b wrote:
15s sound like crap and 10s are not strong enough but their response is amazing.



I don't even know where to begin when I read statements as false as that one.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:15 am 
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gamefoo21 wrote:
Pfft... real SQ guys run sealed box subs with the proper air volume for tight crisp bass across the spectrum....


I know your saying this in jest but there are a lot more ported boxes being run in SQ now. Some of the best audiophile speakers in the world (home/studio audio) are ported. Its all in the design.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:48 pm 
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m wrote:
swift13b wrote:
15s sound like crap and 10s are not strong enough but their response is amazing.



I don't even know where to begin when I read statements as false as that one.


um? elaborate? maybe I didnt mean "sound like crap" but they are over powerful and from the 4 or 5 different ones ive heard they didnt play up high well enough. and 10s arent strong enough for me anyways. maybe I didnt hear the 15's in a properly built enclosure but ive never used anything but 12's myself. big cones sound muddy

12's to 6.5's to 1" SILK tweeters is the way to go. I dont even know what mbquart ships with, but who ever designed those tweets needs to put in a room with those tweets full blast for an hour and see how he likes it :twisted: you start mixing too many different sizes and it WILL sound like "wet mud".

I dont know why you want all these speakers though I could sure pound 4 8's for subs myself and ditch the one 12. but to contradict myself im putting 4 12's in the swift in a sealed box. I have them and they are still good but they are old (good) kickers I cant get much for if I sold them so id rather put them to use. ive never played more than 2 subs before, im almost a little excited!

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:05 pm 
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m wrote:
gamefoo21 wrote:
Pfft... real SQ guys run sealed box subs with the proper air volume for tight crisp bass across the spectrum....


I know your saying this in jest but there are a lot more ported boxes being run in SQ now. Some of the best audiophile speakers in the world (home/studio audio) are ported. Its all in the design.


I was saying it in jest, but for homebrew limited budget not many people have the expertise or the financial backing to get boxes ported and have the interiors walled off properly. I know some speakers have some pretty wicked horn ports but they are computer designed down to thickness of the abs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:20 pm 
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http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ equations and everything. theres software you can use too, but I prefer to do it manually so I understand

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Your making a lot of generalizations here that simply aren't true.

swift13b wrote:
um? elaborate?... big cones sound muddy


There is nothing to elaborate on. Cone diameter has no real bearing on how a driver sounds. You can have a 15 play just as tight as a 10 and a 10 sound just as bloated as a 15. Enclosure design plays a major part as does what the sub was designed for. There are tonnes of 15's that have exceptional detail, little decay, and don't sound bloated. There are tonnes of 10's that sound like shit.

swift13b wrote:
10s arent strong enough for me anyways.


You say this as if though you've actualy experienced a truly high end 10. I think your generalizing again. I'll put any amount of money that a properly powered/enclosed RE MT10, Atomic ELE 10, Orion HCCA10, Audio pulse REVO10 etc. will absolutely demolish your 12" Type R (a decent speaker but by no means high end). Some of those 10's will also kill your Type R in the SQ department too BTW. Maybe you mean to say that a 10" driver with your budget isn't powerful enough...I don't know there...

swift13b wrote:
the 4 or 5 different ones ive heard they didnt play up high well enough


They aren't supposed to play high. If your subs aren't playing high enough it means that your midbasses are crapping out and you need to upgrade them. Most systems (regardless of SQ or SPL) will have a crossover point under 100Hz which virtualy any sub can play to. I've seen a few that ran subs up front (yes I've even seen a B&W Nautilus 15" sub up front...in kick pods no less) run crossovers as high as 130Hz and still had no problems. If your asking your sub woofer to play higher than 120-150Hz your just asking for cone breakup (muddiness). Again this is regardless of whether its a 5" or an 18". Subwoofers, for the most part, are not designed to operate over much more than 2-3 octaves (assuming your starting at 20Hz). Some home audio floor speakers will use larger woofer cones that play well over that but you won't find many of these speakers dropping much below 40Hz-50Hz with any major impact unless they are using a LOT of cone area (think Cerwin Vega CLS-215) to do it. They also rarely have the larger drivers playing much over 250Hz (a little less than 4 octaves) before a midbass picks up the sound from there. Large PA drivers can run from 40ish Hz to about 700-1Khz but again, you often will run a dedicated sub to handle below 80Hz. Of course there are exceptions to this rule when you start getting into elaborate enclosure designs (like transmission lines/horns) or start dealing with very high end speakers. As far as car audio is concerned, you will rarely see somebody (who knows what they are doing) run a sub much over 100Hz.

swift13b wrote:
SILK tweeters is the way to go


There are just as many shitty sounding silk domes as there shitty sound metal domes. There are also just as many STELLAR metal domes as there are silks. A lot of it comes down to user preference.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:31 pm 
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yeah im generalizing because I didnt think this was a huge technical debate. heres another generalization, dollar for dollar a 10" sub will sound better than the 15.
I also argued that the quality of the box makes a difference. I didnt say I won the sq competitions but it was impressive with the dollar spent. Never said the type r was the sub of all subs either, thats just what ive used recently
and by "high enough" I meant sound good passed 60. maybe its just because I live in buttfuck no where and the only time something good comes around in the competitions is because its some rich guy with too much money who happens to live in the city, but I never run my subs passed 80, infact I try to keep it around 60 if ive got enough fronts. ive never heard a sub play passed 60 exceptionally well so thats usually where I draw the line. I buy low fs drivers and build the boxes around them, which doesnt give me alot of room for the higher frequencies as the box doesnt like to play them. I dont have enough experience with sealed boxes (though does it really matter? you seal it and build the NET volume to what the sub requires, thats the only calculation you have to do. Ive only estimated my driver displacement in the box, but I think sealed sounds good everywhere, though I havent put big drivers in sealed boxes and play them to 100, I would just expect a flatter response.

Ive never built a "perfect" box yet, but ive built some pretty impressive ones.

and yes it is personal preference about silk vs metal tweets. silks sound a million times better, never heard a bad silk, but so many metal tweets are far too sharp

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:05 pm 
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i've used kove titanium dome and kevlar dome tweeters several times. they are a bit brighter than the kove silk domes but they also are better at handling temperature extremes and humid weather. they generally handle more power, too.

here are a couple of kove armageddon 10s in a home built, tuned, ported enclosure that chuckwagon and i built to fit a vert trunk. they were each powered by separate hart professional ht1200 II 1200 watt amps. sq or spl, they were impressive with a 1 1/2" excursion. even with the absence of cabin gain in an open car, the output would blur your vision and whomp on your internal organs.

Image

a good 10 inch sub driver in a good enclosure and with proper power can run you out of a geo hatchback and aside from a early system using two 8" nakamichi free air subs in my white vert and one 12" kove kew sub in a sealed box, 10" subs are the only size i use in my metro systems, verts or hatchbacks. i'm not opposed to 15" subs in any way, though, and for sound re-inforcement, you can't beat 'em. they're just a bit of overkill and quite heavy for use in a metro.

as far as multiple drivers muddying the sound stage, my old dahlquist dq10s excelled in presence and stereo imaging. my old nakamichi reference series speakers will blow away that theory, too. both of those systems use multiple, varying size speakers and sophisticated crossovers.

some of the best car stereos i have ever heard used multiple "fill" drivers in conjunction with main front speaker components. one of the most important considerations for imaging in a mobile audio system is the time domain alignment of the main midrange and high frequency drivers. moving the tweeter location away from the midrange driver induces time smearing and sibilance in a car just the same as it does in a bad home speaker design. it manifests itself as ssssss-sssss as opposed to s. =) it's important to consider the tweeters and midrange drivers as a single point source and keep them as close to one another as you can.

at any rate, it's easier and much more likely that you can build a crap car stereo, no matter how much you spend, than it is to build a good one. building a killer system takes a good bit of planning along with execution of the installation. you can also build a pretty darn good sounding system fairly inexpensively if you carefully consider your choices. my tracker only has great speakers in the factory dash locations and a head unit. with a little bottom end support it would be everything you could ask for and cost under $400.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:51 pm 
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2.1 ftw, front stage with sub. anything else and you are complicating things

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:19 am 
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swift13b wrote:
yeah im generalizing because I didnt think this was a huge technical debate.


Your right. It isn't a huge technical debate...but you asked me to elaborate. Don't take my diatribe as me trying to "put you in your place" or something like that. I try to be accurate with posts and while generalizations are usualy harmless some of them are just plain false.

swift13b wrote:
heres another generalization, dollar for dollar a 10" sub will sound better than the 15.

I'll disagree with you here because I've heard/seen otherwise.

swift13b wrote:
I also argued that the quality of the box makes a difference. I didnt say I won the sq competitions but it was impressive with the dollar spent. Never said the type r was the sub of all subs either, thats just what ive used recently


And if I made it sound like you did I apologize for that. I made mention of the Type R because it was the example you gave. Your generalization led me to believe that you didn't think a 10 could go loud enough. Knowing what a Type R 12 can do and knowing what a few other 10's can do is what I based my reply on.

swift13b wrote:
and by "high enough" I meant sound good passed 60.


This is another case where you and me have had very different experiences. I've heard plenty of subs play well above 60Hz. In fact...I can't think of a sub I heard that didn't play decently above 60Hz.

swift13b wrote:
I buy low fs drivers and build the boxes around them, which doesnt give me alot of room for the higher frequencies as the box doesnt like to play them.


I'm not sure why. When you tune low it shouldn't affect it that badly. There is a peak that slopes down a bit above the tune but generaly it won't cut the top end off. I know that if you tune low and your sub bumps up 6db under the tune that it can certainly appear that there is nothing above tunning but thats an enclosure issue and not necessarily the sub's fault. Bandpass will do that but we'll save that for another day ;).

swift13b wrote:
I dont have enough experience with sealed boxes (though does it really matter? you seal it and build the NET volume to what the sub requires, thats the only calculation you have to do.


Thats pretty much it. You can take it to another level when you work out your vehicles transfer function and build the enclosure according to it (which you can also do with a ported enclosure). Basicaly if your car fattens the bass up you build the enclosure to lean it out a bit and vice versa. You can't correct peaks without EQing though. Majic alignment is a Qtc .707. In the grand scheme of things get a sealed enclosure close to where it should be and you won't likely notice the difference.

swift13b wrote:
Ive only estimated my driver displacement in the box, but I think sealed sounds good everywhere, though I havent put big drivers in sealed boxes and play them to 100, I would just expect a flatter response.


Sealed is a safe bet "jack of all trades" enclosure. Easy to build with predictable response that doesn't over emphasize one frequency over another like a vented enclosure can. Driver size makes no real difference. The slopes will still roll off the same as its a characteristic of the design. I've ran everything from 6.5" to 18" in sealed enclosures. All sounded decent.

swift13b wrote:
silks sound a million times better


If you say so...I've heard otherwise. That being said...My Nissan has silks, my home theater uses Teteron, my monitors use Mylar, and my Scion uses metal. They all sound different but I have no complaints about any of them. While you are correct that there are more "hot" metal domes than "hot" silks but I've also heard soft silks that lack detail. I have nothing against any of the materials really...as long as they sound good. Again, design plays a major roll here and even a mild change in crossover points/slopes can have a huge impact on the sound. As a point of interest the best out there is said to be a plasma tweeter. I've never heard one but if you happen to know any Acapella Audio Arts dealers you may be lucky enough to hear the $380K Spharon Excaliburs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8" speakers.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:46 pm
Posts: 1722
Location: Yuma, Arizona
I want to sound super loud for db battle. The loudest car here on the island runs 8 10" as mid bass, 5 big tweeters, 4 15", 6 amps, 4 batteries, 2 preamps, a radio and dvd in the dash, 4 crossovers and I think 4 or 6 caps. It's in the mid car division and reaches I think around 200 db. No one has cars in the sub compact and the few that are don't sound loud and good at all. I want to see if my simple system would beat the few cars in that class.

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