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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:24 am 
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hey guys. I do stereos all day long I'm a certified installer and I've spent all of my time focusing on audio, and less on the electronics end.


all of your cars are ridiculously tiny.

buy some really good front speakers and an amp. that's all you need. if you DID put in rear speakers in your tiny tiny car they'd be all you heard. your door panels are made of cardboard. if one pair isn't good enough, cut holes and sink in an extra set. just do me and yourselves a favour and trust me, all you need are front speakers. it's quality, not quantity that counts in such a very small car. you can't fit a BMW 12 speaker system in a geo, it just won't make sense musically.


by the way, like I mentioned I am a certified installer, and I'd be happy to answer any electrical or audio related questions. I can give you a good idea on anything you're gonna want to know from what brands to buy to what to spend, anything, like I know about audio video, lighting, custom work, anything.

I really hope some of you guys who don't really know better yet will take my word for it. I do rather specialize in sound quality setups.

Happy to pull some weight around to help you guys out :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:25 am 
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Last edited by 1995Firefly4dr on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:26 am 
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150dollarcar wrote:
hey guys. I do stereos all day long I'm a certified installer and I've spent all of my time focusing on audio, and less on the electronics end.


all of your cars are ridiculously tiny.

buy some really good front speakers and an amp. that's all you need. if you DID put in rear speakers in your tiny tiny car they'd be all you heard. your door panels are made of cardboard. if one pair isn't good enough, cut holes and sink in an extra set. just do me and yourselves a favour and trust me, all you need are front speakers. it's quality, not quantity that counts in such a very small car. you can't fit a BMW 12 speaker system in a geo, it just won't make sense musically.


by the way, like I mentioned I am a certified installer, and I'd be happy to answer any electrical or audio related questions. I can give you a good idea on anything you're gonna want to know from what brands to buy to what to spend, anything, like I know about audio video, lighting, custom work, anything.

I really hope some of you guys who don't really know better yet will take my word for it. I do rather specialize in sound quality setups.

Happy to pull some weight around to help you guys out :)


I went with a all polk-momo audio install. Got two 12inch polks wired into mono block, 500W tested 525 on the certificate. Then in front speakers i have polk db II series (100W), with custom mounted ports for the tweets. I only have a 40W head unit and so when I crank it to 38 the fronts start to crackle/distort - i have to adjust the settings because they are getting too much bass for the head unit to send. I use 4ga. wire for the sub.
Image
Although, I need to upgrade the alternator as its only 55A and this is not enough as the lights dim when bass hits, and after a certain volume level the woofers dont get any louder so i get a feeling that i'm not getting enough amps.

BTW I have a true RMS clamp meter, i clocked peak reading of 110A from the battery going to the amp. Is there a proper way to test power draw with an audio system when it's always up and down ? peak reading or current reading because it doesnt have an average setting. just zero, peak and normal.

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:53 pm 
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the reason it stops getting louder after a certain volume is because thats the theoretical max volume you can get out of your drivers. probably has nothing to do with how many amps its drawing. you can turn it up more and you get a db maybe out of it, but you are already driving that speaker really hard, its at the edge of distorting as you come up to this volume-it-doesnt-get-louder point. The only thing you can do is put more drivers in (or switch them out for louder ones). sending it MORE power is not going to help you. and clipping it wont make it last very long

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:00 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
the reason it stops getting louder after a certain volume is because thats the theoretical max volume you can get out of your drivers. probably has nothing to do with how many amps its drawing. you can turn it up more and you get a db maybe out of it, but you are already driving that speaker really hard, its at the edge of distorting as you come up to this volume-it-doesnt-get-louder point. The only thing you can do is put more drivers in (or switch them out for louder ones). sending it MORE power is not going to help you. and clipping it wont make it last very long



By this logic I can take a 2000W driver and run a 500W amp into it and once it stops getting louder it means my sub has maxed out. May want to reword your statement cause that don't make no sense.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:16 pm 
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My buddy Justin is also a certified installer at the best stereo shop in town. Mobile FX.

anyways he agree's that all you need is front speakers.

I mounted a 6" speaker on the bottom back corner of each of my front doors. they do sound good and are cheap dual speakers haha. i also have 2 6" jensen speakers in individual vented boxes in the very back... they are good for nothing but bass. So i also agree the 2 fronts are all you need. But as far as bass goes, the 2 fronts are gonna suck!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:27 pm 
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m wrote:
swift13b wrote:
the reason it stops getting louder after a certain volume is because thats the theoretical max volume you can get out of your drivers. probably has nothing to do with how many amps its drawing. you can turn it up more and you get a db maybe out of it, but you are already driving that speaker really hard, its at the edge of distorting as you come up to this volume-it-doesnt-get-louder point. The only thing you can do is put more drivers in (or switch them out for louder ones). sending it MORE power is not going to help you. and clipping it wont make it last very long



By this logic I can take a 2000W driver and run a 500W amp into it and once it stops getting louder it means my sub has maxed out. May want to reword your statement cause that don't make no sense.


maybe ill find out once i finalize my installation, it's really only at the 'rough-in' stage right now

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:09 am 
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m wrote:
swift13b wrote:
the reason it stops getting louder after a certain volume is because thats the theoretical max volume you can get out of your drivers. probably has nothing to do with how many amps its drawing. you can turn it up more and you get a db maybe out of it, but you are already driving that speaker really hard, its at the edge of distorting as you come up to this volume-it-doesnt-get-louder point. The only thing you can do is put more drivers in (or switch them out for louder ones). sending it MORE power is not going to help you. and clipping it wont make it last very long



By this logic I can take a 2000W driver and run a 500W amp into it and once it stops getting louder it means my sub has maxed out. May want to reword your statement cause that don't make no sense.

well ill reword it just a little.

with that 500w, once it stops getting louder you are running it as loud as it can go. The amp wont push it any harder. Running more power to the AMP wont make the sub get louder. you are on the verge of clipping the amp. with a bigger amp you will be able to push it harder as if thats not obvious. but basically double rms gives you 3dbs. so theoretically going from 500w to 2000w in terms of amp, if the sub can take it, you should gain ~6db

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:13 pm 
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yes, but let me express that i use the 55A alternator and the tests are done with engine at idle. the 500W amp takes 55A first of all, and the alt can't produce the 55A at idle anyways. so what we have here is a probrem because i need to upgrade to a 110A alt or something , and then test it at idle.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:59 am 
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Little-car-mafia wrote:
My buddy Justin is also a certified installer at the best stereo shop in town. Mobile FX.

anyways he agree's that all you need is front speakers.

I mounted a 6" speaker on the bottom back corner of each of my front doors. they do sound good and are cheap dual speakers haha. i also have 2 6" jensen speakers in individual vented boxes in the very back... they are good for nothing but bass. So i also agree the 2 fronts are all you need. But as far as bass goes, the 2 fronts are gonna suck!


tat's kinda funny, my name is justin also.

speakers are not meant for bass. throw some decent speakers in the front, because I don't wanna shoot down what you spent your money on, but jensen's aren't really very good. go for some nice polks, or zapco's, or diamonds, and run a small amp, run a single sub in a ported box and you've got the ideal setup for a swift.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:03 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
m wrote:
swift13b wrote:
the reason it stops getting louder after a certain volume is because thats the theoretical max volume you can get out of your drivers. probably has nothing to do with how many amps its drawing. you can turn it up more and you get a db maybe out of it, but you are already driving that speaker really hard, its at the edge of distorting as you come up to this volume-it-doesnt-get-louder point. The only thing you can do is put more drivers in (or switch them out for louder ones). sending it MORE power is not going to help you. and clipping it wont make it last very long


who knows a fair bit about audio, to come to the assistance of a fellow person let me try and help him put it into non-engineer language


the output of the amp depends on the input voltage and current. if the alternator only puts out 55A of current, the biggest amp you're going to be able to effectively run will have maximum like a 25 A fuse. if it has more, then as you turn it up, the output side is going to distort because it doesn't have the current to supply your drivers. it will hit it's maximum at about half volume and then overdrive like crazy because it's trying to turn up but can't, so all it can do is dirty up that signal from the input side and make it sound like you bought your system at wal mart


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:07 pm 
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150dollarcar wrote:

who knows a fair bit about audio, to come to the assistance of a fellow person let me try and help him put it into non-engineer language


the output of the amp depends on the input voltage and current. if the alternator only puts out 55A of current, the biggest amp you're going to be able to effectively run will have maximum like a 25 A fuse. if it has more, then as you turn it up, the output side is going to distort because it doesn't have the current to supply your drivers. it will hit it's maximum at about half volume and then overdrive like crazy because it's trying to turn up but can't, so all it can do is dirty up that signal from the input side and make it sound like you bought your system at wal mart


that seems to be a perfect description of my headunit and front speakers, but not my rear subs. The distortion only happens at near max volume at 36-40. When I adjust the sound settings, later on after its installed for less bass they would clear up. But the fronts are 100W and I think my headunit can only do a max of 40W each driver.

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:39 pm 
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yeah so probably 10-15wrms

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:13 am 
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yeah well nevermind the power ratings of the speaker, because you're not even close to putting out that much sound. the distortion happens when you turn it up near the maximum on any deck in any car anyways. the only way to achieve low distortion at high volume is to install amplifiers and leave the gain settings low.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:51 am 
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Don't feel like your shooting me down, i didn't spend a dime on any part of my stereo. the jensen's sound good in the boxes. i know they aren't for bass but they have a good tone to them. i'm not much for subs and all. listening to tom petty or zeppelin while bumpin just seems kinda poserish and off tune. sounds ok enough for me so i just let it be. but then again i'm the type of guy that just get's lucky my new car's even have a radio still, i'm more used to listening to a 38" Super Swamper howl down the road.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:08 am 
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swift13b wrote:
yeah so probably 10-15wrms


to be precise 18RMS each channel, 4 channels so i'm only using the fronts.

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:05 am 
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Little-car-mafia wrote:
Don't feel like your shooting me down, i didn't spend a dime on any part of my stereo. the jensen's sound good in the boxes. i know they aren't for bass but they have a good tone to them. i'm not much for subs and all. listening to tom petty or zeppelin while bumpin just seems kinda poserish and off tune. sounds ok enough for me so i just let it be. but then again i'm the type of guy that just get's lucky my new car's even have a radio still, i'm more used to listening to a 38" Super Swamper howl down the road.



lol awesome. would that be the swift? lmao


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:11 am 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
swift13b wrote:
yeah so probably 10-15wrms


to be precise 18RMS each channel, 4 channels so i'm only using the fronts.


18 rms is a little high. what deck is it?

also you're saying that your speakers will distort at lower volumes than your sub. so then why don't you turn your sub gain up a little to match the speakers so everybody's happy?

what's going on with the distortion isn't a problem. it happens in every car with every deck. just gotta set your levels right.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:48 pm 
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150dollarcar wrote:
1995Firefly4dr wrote:
swift13b wrote:
yeah so probably 10-15wrms


to be precise 18RMS each channel, 4 channels so i'm only using the fronts.


18 rms is a little high. what deck is it?

also you're saying that your speakers will distort at lower volumes than your sub. so then why don't you turn your sub gain up a little to match the speakers so everybody's happy?

what's going on with the distortion isn't a problem. it happens in every car with every deck. just gotta set your levels right.


no i'm saying my sub goes at a loud volume but once it's there I try to increase volume more but no difference, but hey i dont have an spl meter. my headunit is panasonic and has usb, mp3/wma, mini-jack in remote, etc . like i said before everything in my car is 'rough in stage' i still have my gas tank out, all seats out, dashboard out, body front end off, etc. that damn lithan needs to hurry up and reply to my PMs about the DRL controller because at this point followed his instructions for MK3 version on MK4 car and now it's fubared and he doesnt care ! talk about community

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:55 pm 
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when you get to that point where it stops getting louder, either you should turn down the gain so you can play both the stage and the bass into distortion at the same time rather than one before the other. your best bet is to get some mint speakers for the front with a 50x2 amp or something. and like the thread says, dont waste your time with rear speakers.

however, you can always put a real big amp on a smaller sub. I ran 1200w rms to a 500wrms sub and it still pounds to this day. its just a matter of not clipping it at that point. once you start driving dc power into the sub youll melt the coil at overpowered levels. but then again its the same as turning the volume up on the deck probably 4-5 more points with the gain in volume from higher wattage. you just have to be careful overpowering your equipment. you could probably clip your deck all you want and never really harm your speakers, which is what 99% of the cars out there are doing. thousands of watts in the trunk, and deck powered stock speakers :huh: :huh: :huh:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:10 pm 
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to be honest the volume level of the front speakers even at 18W are plenty enough. in the interest of protecting my hearing really only need to be at 25-30 volume level

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:29 pm 
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doesnt necessarily make it sound louder, just better. more mid bass etc

edit: err that sounds dumb, yes it will make it play louder too

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:24 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
when you get to that point where it stops getting louder, either you should turn down the gain so you can play both the stage and the bass into distortion at the same time rather than one before the other. your best bet is to get some mint speakers for the front with a 50x2 amp or something. and like the thread says, dont waste your time with rear speakers.

however, you can always put a real big amp on a smaller sub. I ran 1200w rms to a 500wrms sub and it still pounds to this day. its just a matter of not clipping it at that point. once you start driving dc power into the sub youll melt the coil at overpowered levels. but then again its the same as turning the volume up on the deck probably 4-5 more points with the gain in volume from higher wattage. you just have to be careful overpowering your equipment. you could probably clip your deck all you want and never really harm your speakers, which is what 99% of the cars out there are doing. thousands of watts in the trunk, and deck powered stock speakers :huh: :huh: :huh:



This guy knows it.

you'll blow speakers everytime by underpowering them. the only time they blow from overpowering is clipping. adjust your gains carefully and you'll never have a problem


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:39 pm 
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and another thing, you shouldnt turn bass down on the front, keep it where they were and leave settings as flat as possible. I never use EQ's, or bass boost, or bass/treb on the deck (okay, maybe ONE point if I have to) but if they start to crackle, try putting a baffle in the door behind the speaker, gives it a little air resistance and should boost your bass (or really, not waste it) then I would dynamat(or whichever really, I throw that term around like kleenex) the whole door, or atleast the portion the speaker sits on, its baffle, and the tinny sheet metal that is your door. then if you still have noise, turn the gain down on the amp. if its making bad sounds its the same as overdriving a sub. little speakers (6.5" and below) are harder to blow the coils on that subs (or atleast the way I drive my stuff ;)) but if your stage isnt loud enough, tweaking with the bass so you can squeeze another 3 deck points out of it is the wrong way of doing it. your stage is too weak!! start by giving them some real power, dont buy some cheap shitty 100x2 for 50 bucks. buy a 50-75wx2 decent brand(used/whatever) and spend a little money. if thats still not good enough (and you are still confident in this pair of speakers your bought... I always spend good money on speakers and less on an amp. could do it the other way too. but good speakers are always good, you cant make a shitty speaker sound good with a good amp but its hard to kill a good sound with a cheaper-ish amp) so anyways, you dont think your speakers are holding you back at this point. buy a line driver, audiocontrol makes a good unit. most amps will take a 5v signal, but most decks put out 1.5-2.5, cheaper=less usually. and that means you need to have your gains cranked up.

high gains + low voltage = hissing, more susceptible to noise, basically steals a little headroom (like not dynamatting does)
so if you have minimum gains+max rca voltage (at the max listening volume ofcourse... its all about tuning it) you will have a clearer/richer sound, and will probably pick up a db or so in the lower volumes, and wont screech the hell out of the highs.

great, try it again, this time instead of deck volume being 40 or something, youll have the same volume, at say 20-25, still plenty of control to keep it relatively quiet in the low volumes, but itll sound MUCH better. and you have a little more room to drive that deck if your not clipping your input signals (another thing to be careful of using line drivers) but you could probably crank the line driver up and still not clip it. if you have an amp that can take 5v, and feed it 2. the gain "makes up" voltage to increase the volume. if you feed it 5, have no gain... I dont know its hard to explain. it just works. most of the time at regular/notuberloud volumes you are probably only giving the amp 1/2 the output the deck is capable of. thus the high gains. you take that 0.7 volts, boost it up to 3, and your world of listening will be changed forever.

my last system had one amp per speaker. it was a mbq reference set and was rated at something like 70-120watts. I dont really want to brag or anything I just want to tell the story...
I had a carputer system in there, with a high end sound card (sound card typically suck for rca voltage <1V usually) this one did 2.5, so it was a bonus. I ran that signal into the line driver, but through a split. I intended to run two amps off one signal. so I split it down so each left had 2 signals to input into something. I then plugged each set of left and right into their own ports on my audiocontrol line driver and cranked up the gain on the driver to about 70%, at max volume it would occasionally light up the 5v light, meaning I was good. So I then took the output from 'output1' which was two sets of left, and ran them to one amp, same for the right. I then ran them to a high end 300wrmsx1@4 (x2 ofcourse) and had the left speaker in the set connected in bridged mode to the "left" amp, and same for the right.

so each 120w speaker was getting 300w rms. I had the gain at the very lowest it could be, didnt even think twice about that. no bass boost, but a crossover freq of 60hz. the speaker itself had a crossover aswell splitting 2500hz to the cone and above to the tweet. the crossover had a built in DC voltage absorber for the tweeter, it was a light bulb basically (doesnt light up when AC wattage is being sent, but when it would clip, it would light up and save the speaker). fully matted doors and a bunch of sub in the trunk (also ran through line driver)

it was setup and designed entirely by me, it was a carputer so I had TONS of flac rips (high bitrate) and let me tell you, DONT EVER buy a system like this because it ruins the rest of your life for you. nothing sounds the same if you go all out. not stupid all out like some people, but properly.




but back on topic. please take those speakers off deck power 1995, feed them something like 100x2 and put a 60-80hz crossover on the amp as high pass.

then thank me later.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:14 pm 
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thanks for that advice ill adjust the headunit to 60-80hz but i have everything wired up and im not going to buy an amp just for fronts if you want to go ahead and buy one for me and install it i'm more than willing to accept

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1995 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 8VALVE MANUAL
2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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