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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:12 pm 
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just for that, if you drove here, I have enough equipment I would just give you this 50x2 I have, and id wire it. come to SK.

when im right, you will feel obligated to buy me beer in the end, so its all good

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:41 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
little speakers (6.5" and below) are harder to blow the coils on that subs


Can you explain this one in detail please?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:53 pm 
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well based on what ive played with, Ive only blown subs but thats because I was running much more power and it clipped. 1000w is alot easier to blow compared to a clipped 50w signal for a speaker.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:44 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
well based on what ive played with, Ive only blown subs but thats because I was running much more power and it clipped. 1000w is alot easier to blow compared to a clipped 50w signal for a speaker.



So in other words: You've overpowered subs with clipped signals, run rated power through smaller midrange/midbasses, and because they lasted longer than the subs you think that means that smaller speakers are somehow harder to blow?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:32 am 
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m wrote:
swift13b wrote:
well based on what ive played with, Ive only blown subs but thats because I was running much more power and it clipped. 1000w is alot easier to blow compared to a clipped 50w signal for a speaker.



So in other words: You've overpowered subs with clipped signals, run rated power through smaller midrange/midbasses, and because they lasted longer than the subs you think that means that smaller speakers are somehow harder to blow?

well I did say based on the equipment I was using. but no, I was overpowering the fronts too. I rarely blow things, but when it came down to it, lets say 50% overpowered, it has been easier for me to blow subs... :huh: I dunno, I would almost think that since theres less wire in the speakers vs sub, that you could destroy a speaker easier. it weird

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:11 am 
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generally you'll blow a speaker much easier by underpowering it than overpowering it. but power has less to do with it than clipping. if you turn your gains all the way up, yeah, expect it to blow. the one thing about speakers is that it is much easier to tell when they're clipping because there's a much broader response range, so as soon as they start to crack you back the volume off, but with subs, you can tell they're clipping (if you care, most people who know nothing of it tend to just turn it all the way up and show up surprised when it blows up), but at the same time they do actually produce more bass when they clip, even if it's just a little bit, and that's where people make their mistakes. we love bass but that's pretty much what ends up happening.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:25 am 
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i have 3.5's in the dash, and the sound depth is amazing with the 12" sub in the rear. with deep bass it almost seems imparitive to go with a speaker that can replicate the highs really well. i also have 6x9's in the rear because i thought they would add a bit more powerful mid range then the 3.5's.

do any of you guys notice that after market speakers have next to NO bass. almost as if you just need to get at least a small sub going on to help them out? if i have my sub off i have NO bass at all with even my efx 6x9's. unless they are just complete sh**.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:33 pm 
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150dollarcar wrote:
generally you'll blow a speaker much easier by underpowering it than overpowering it. but power has less to do with it than clipping. if you turn your gains all the way up, yeah, expect it to blow. the one thing about speakers is that it is much easier to tell when they're clipping because there's a much broader response range, so as soon as they start to crack you back the volume off, but with subs, you can tell they're clipping (if you care, most people who know nothing of it tend to just turn it all the way up and show up surprised when it blows up), but at the same time they do actually produce more bass when they clip, even if it's just a little bit, and that's where people make their mistakes. we love bass but that's pretty much what ends up happening.


is this when the speaker 'baffles' like it stops producing sound and then just moves back and forth but not enough to produce the clear sound ? sort of like when you blow a raspberry

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:58 am 
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1995Firefly4dr wrote:
150dollarcar wrote:
generally you'll blow a speaker much easier by underpowering it than overpowering it. but power has less to do with it than clipping. if you turn your gains all the way up, yeah, expect it to blow. the one thing about speakers is that it is much easier to tell when they're clipping because there's a much broader response range, so as soon as they start to crack you back the volume off, but with subs, you can tell they're clipping (if you care, most people who know nothing of it tend to just turn it all the way up and show up surprised when it blows up), but at the same time they do actually produce more bass when they clip, even if it's just a little bit, and that's where people make their mistakes. we love bass but that's pretty much what ends up happening.


is this when the speaker 'baffles' like it stops producing sound and then just moves back and forth but not enough to produce the clear sound ? sort of like when you blow a raspberry


I dunno, can you not tell when a speaker is not playing clearly? can you turn it all the way up and not tell it's not getting louder, just starting to distort more and more? it doesn't really take a good ear to hear when a speaker starts distorting. I'm trying to say it's much harder to tell when a sub is distorting when compared to a full range speaker.

*edit sorry man I didn't notice the link, lol


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:15 pm 
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okay so i don't think that this is the problem with my subs, i can now be sure they didnt have enough power . because when i turned up the volume, yes they got loud but after half way they didnt make any difference in bass and this is with the 55A generator at engine idle speed. this is why i'm upgrading to a bigger alternator - 120A or so. i just finished upgrading engine and body grounds to 4GA and i'm going to use 1GA from the alt to battery (the store didnt have 2GA so i took the next one down) .

Also with the rear speakers i think that i'm going to remove them and put dynamat on both sides of the rear brake light panel underside and top side covering the speaker holes for better bass. as the dynamat instructions they say to cover all holes that you can with the mat.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Your alt isn't the problem. I ran 2500WRMS on mine with no alt issues. The battery will deliver the current on short bursts. I'm doubting that your amp is pulling that much current to stop making power. Theres a guy in AUS running 10kw on the same 55A alt. It won't hurt to upgrade but that isn't where your problem lies unless your alt is toast....

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:42 pm 
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at the same time, you will eventually kill your whole electrical system running high wattage off such a small battery and alternator. anybody running 10kW off a stock swift sertup won't be able to turn it up. it will clip and shut off. not enough power to supply that. short bursts syure, it will burp just fine, but you won't be able to play it like it's your daily driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Not necessarily. I ran a 3000W setup for years on my Swift and only toasted an already dying alternator the first week or so that I had it. The new OEM alt lasted just fine and is working in another Swift I had. As for not being able to turn up a 10kw setup with a factory system? It runs just fine and gets turned up quite a bit. Think about it...you wouldn't be using the full 10kw. Turning it up is a relative term. He could have it loud enough to hear from 3 blocks away but might only be using 1000W to do it. Even less when you account for musical peaks and dips. You'd be surprised at how little power you need to really get loud.I'm curious. You say your in the industry but in what respect? Sales? Install?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:21 pm 
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its no doubt that running your alternator on high load all the time isnt better for it than a lighter load. but at the same time the alternator is designed to generate and hold that much current. it has a built in cooling system and if its meant to generate X amps at Y rpm and above (not idle) then thats what itll do.

if you are drawing 800+ amps, your battery will just take the load while the alternator works at 100% making 55 of those amps. people are retarded when it comes to huge systems in their daily drivers. for competition fine. but in order to draw 800amps off the battery at any given time you need something that has atleast that much cranking amps. and if it does and you run the car and rev it, AND put the stereo to full volume. you will just eventually run that battery dry, or rather amp will go into low voltage mode and the car will continue to run.

alternator will still take the load no problem. if its tired and worn its not a good idea to run it at 100%, just like a bagged motor is no good to be at WOT all the time...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:20 am 
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I agree big time with the opening post. Front speakers and an optional sub is everything you need, I believe it should be enough for ANY car.

I don't believe in dual kick sets either. You can get 16.5cm compo's nowadays that pump out 150W RMS. If those 150 watts of mid & high aren't enough for you, you are one unbelievably deaf sod...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:32 am 
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And I'll give you another funny fact.

I used to run my home speakers off a 2x35W amp. The speakers can handle about 160W each, but the woofers would start to move and everything shook like I had a 200W amp behind it - I couldn't even open up the 35W without fear of blowing a speaker.

Now, I run them off a very stable 75W amp that only starts clipping around 95% of max volume.
The speakers sound extremely tight now, and the fun is: I can turn the volume right up till the clip light flashes like mad (max volume).

The only reason they were about to blow at 35W is because the amp didn't have enough power to control the double woofers on both speakers. With the 75W they don't move as much as they did before, but it sounds louder and better.

Moral of the story: It's better to overpower your speakers than to underpower them: It's better for your hearing and for your speakers. That said, those 75 watts are more then enough for in my living room: Setting the amp at half power makes it loud enough for the neighbours to hear.... for those who don't know: we live in a farm!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:16 am 
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braided wrote:
And I'll give you another funny fact.

I used to run my home speakers off a 2x35W amp. The speakers can handle about 160W each, but the woofers would start to move and everything shook like I had a 200W amp behind it - I couldn't even open up the 35W without fear of blowing a speaker.

Now, I run them off a very stable 75W amp that only starts clipping around 95% of max volume.
The speakers sound extremely tight now, and the fun is: I can turn the volume right up till the clip light flashes like mad (max volume).

The only reason they were about to blow at 35W is because the amp didn't have enough power to control the double woofers on both speakers. With the 75W they don't move as much as they did before, but it sounds louder and better.

Moral of the story: It's better to overpower your speakers than to underpower them: It's better for your hearing and for your speakers. That said, those 75 watts are more then enough for in my living room: Setting the amp at half power makes it loud enough for the neighbours to hear.... for those who don't know: we live in a farm!

shoulda put them at 200 each. I recently upgraded my front stage in the house. put the subs on a bigger amp, but still only about 150w each. the components are still powered off the reciever, which claims 90w. which would be max, so I would assume 40-50watts rms. my speakers can take well over 350w each, which I tried when these were in my car (mbquarts). I had a mono amp per set, getting a dedicated left or right signal. the clarity I had at above 300watts was incomparable to the measly 40-50 I get now. they dont produce as much midbass. they bounce in and out like crazy but they still sound mint. with the stronger <40hz I definitely need to step up the stage another step.

I also replaced the mbquart tweeters with some less sharp silk ones. I can pound this thing all day and the reciever still doesnt clip (the crossover has a built in lightbulb as a clip absorber) never lights up at max volume... I would occassionally see it light up in the car with 6x the power, at that point its lucky it was being absorbed by the bulb and not the voice coil...

overpowering is always better than underpowering

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:10 pm 
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with all this clip protection and stuff, my amp has these features:
Power and Ground-Reversal Protection, Thermal and Short Protection, Current Overdraw and Low Impedance Protection circuits with auto-Standby Mode ensure safety, reliability and durability.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:23 pm 
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braided wrote:
I used to run my home speakers off a 2x35W amp. The speakers can handle about 160W each, but the woofers would start to move and everything shook like I had a 200W amp behind it - I couldn't even open up the 35W without fear of blowing a speaker.



I'll play devils advocate. It wasn't underpowering them in this case (with the 35W amp) that was causing problems but more the amp's horrible damping factor, or it being heavily clipped to get the speaker (maybe low sensitivity drivers) to perform at a decent volume 8)

I think we can all agree that underpowering them isn't the root cause of the damage but moreover the the clipping that results from overdriving the smaller amps. If the power is clean it won't matter how much less power is going to the speaker.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:25 am 
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bman_333 wrote:
i have 3.5's in the dash, and the sound depth is amazing with the 12" sub in the rear. with deep bass it almost seems imparitive to go with a speaker that can replicate the highs really well. i also have 6x9's in the rear because i thought they would add a bit more powerful mid range then the 3.5's.

do any of you guys notice that after market speakers have next to NO bass. almost as if you just need to get at least a small sub going on to help them out? if i have my sub off i have NO bass at all with even my efx 6x9's. unless they are just complete sh**.


In general aftermarket speakers target a specific frequency range and thus small aftermarket speakers aren't built to produce great bass. The idea being that someone (not me of course :oops: ) that spends a few hundred dollars on a component 6 inch speaker system is probably also going to spend a few hundred dollars on a component subwoofer also and the people making speakers, amps, etc. know (and count on) this so they don't worry about the fact that their 6 inch speaker isn't going to produce "good" bass. Its basic physics really, a small speaker doesn't move enough air to produce "good" bass for many reasons.

The qualities that go into a speaker which is desgined to operate from about 500Hz to around 5kHz (3-6" speakers) or so are much different than the qualities that produce big bass (12" subs) like 1 inch surrounds and giant magnets. Factory speakers accomplish a wider frequency range by giving up lots and lots of sound quality (again in general).

Now I say in general because there are of course speakers all the way up to 4 or 5 way 6x9s that claim to be a whole sound system in 1 speaker and give you a huge frequency range on the label. These speakers are after adequate for casual listeners but they suffer from the same design pitfalls when it comes to reproducing "good" bass.

You can often improve the poor bass of any small speaker by adding some kind of baffle or surround to the back of it. Everyone (almost) puts their subs in boxes. "Good" bass requires excellent air control. The same concept applies to small and large speakers, control the air behind (or in front) of a speaker and you control the cone (better any how).

My little XFI has $10.00 (ebay special) eclipse frontspeakers, 4" I think. They produce NO bass because I am too lazy to build baffles and I have cut out the bass signals going to them with my head unit. They do however produce beautifull high mid to hi frequency sound, even in the poorly thought out downward facing stock location. I also have a single 12" JL12W3 sub in a sealed box which probably retails for no more than about $100.00 powered by a small MTX (100W or so) amp. This is no show stopping setup, however for under $400 it is and extremely pleasant drive to work.

My point is not to brag, my point is we are blessed with a tiny amount of cabin space to fill with sound so if you select quality compenents carefully, you indeed need nothing more than a head unit, front speakers, a small amp and an 8-12 inch sub to enjoy your daily communte. If you are super ambitious though, trash the 4 inch fronts and put 6.5s in the doors, i'll save the long explination for another post... Or if you really want a more detailed/technical description of this topic let me know...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:00 pm 
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m wrote:
Not necessarily. I ran a 3000W setup for years on my Swift and only toasted an already dying alternator the first week or so that I had it. The new OEM alt lasted just fine and is working in another Swift I had. As for not being able to turn up a 10kw setup with a factory system? It runs just fine and gets turned up quite a bit. Think about it...you wouldn't be using the full 10kw. Turning it up is a relative term. He could have it loud enough to hear from 3 blocks away but might only be using 1000W to do it. Even less when you account for musical peaks and dips. You'd be surprised at how little power you need to really get loud.I'm curious. You say your in the industry but in what respect? Sales? Install?


you're not curious. if you read the post that says I'm "in the industry" as you keep saying it, then you'll know I do installs. maybe I came off a little pompous in that post but you my friend are the KING of pompous.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Anyone here have a how to, on building a Acrylic Sub Box??


I want to build myself an acrylic (plexiglass) sub box for a single 10" RE Audio SE Series sub.

Any help is appreciated.

RG

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:44 pm 
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start a new thread raygo

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:23 pm 
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150dollarcar wrote:
you're not curious. if you read the post that says I'm "in the industry" as you keep saying it, then you'll know I do installs. maybe I came off a little pompous in that post but you my friend are the KING of pompous.


I would have answered this sooner but must have missed it...

I am curious because you come off as a salesman who hasn't had any real life experience installing audio. You don't come off as pomopous...you come off as somebody who parrots what he reads in magazines/forums or hears people talk about at the car audio shop without any real concept of how it all comes together. You can go ahead and call me pompous if it makes you feel better but I'll keep calling you out on your typical nonsense when you post it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:26 pm 
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well say what you will, I have no need to you to prove that I'm an installer, so whatever makes you feel good man. I'm done banging my head against the wall with you.


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