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 Post subject: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:34 am 
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Location: Hagersville
why isnt anyone developing chips or the knowledge base for other members to develop their own, in the honda forum community theres a wealth of info about chip tuning ecus and well developed software available to accomplish any goal. I know theres a few guys on this forum that know how to modify the stock ecus, what id like is for a discussion to start, ideas to flow and maybe a few more members to have the skills required to get a few more hp or mpg out of their swift.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:04 am 
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do you want the truth..?
.
.

.
the Honda guys seem to have funds ....Most of us Suzuki owners....not so much..!
.
last count you could order 6 different aftermarket body Kits domesticly for your Civic
to get a body kit for our Swift GTi you have to go abroad...None offered domesticly


These cars are getting rare (Suzuki)
.. alot of us dabble in 84-94 cars and not many of us left...!
and we trend towards daily driver stat then race mode and lean towards cheeper mods
.
back in the day there were a hardcore group of guys pushing the performance aspect and there were alot of good post
on there journeys they took
But those old post were not fixed on the last Teamswift board upgrade so there broken ...OR lost
what a shame
we have I believe there are 6 moderators here and only one DRIVE a Suzuki every day..!
.

........jv&s
.
.
.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Location: Hagersville
That is a sad truth, I've known for many years that theres very limited aftermarket support for suzukis. I've had to build basically anything I've wanted to do to my swifts over the years and the wealth of knowledge on here has been a great help. What I want is to give others interested in making yet another mod for their car an easier time and develop a discussion about chipping and tuning. It allows those like myself and alot of other cash strapped swift owners with a real option other than investing in a standalone ($$$) or trying to make a piggy-back work. I have already burned my own eproms and just want to give others the leg up on how to do it for themselves and develop the knowledge base of the swift community.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:28 pm 
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There was a thread on here many years ago by a gentleman and he was an electronics engineer of sorts. He actually went through the whole eprom and listed what each part of it was trying to do. I looked for the thread but I can't find it. I don't even remember his name. He was from Europe that is all I know.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:26 pm 
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I'm definitely interested, if you want to share your knowledge and experiences about burning your own chip 8) . I've been following this topic, keeping it as a potential upgrade, while I get my thoughts together about what I'm gonna do with the car...keeping it for at least 2 years until I go to Holland for a graduate-degree, so best case scenario the car won't see the road for at least one year and a half; it's possible I don't even come back :-P ! Anyway a standalone seems too expensive and point-less to my situation, but "tuning" the stock ECU is really appealing to me. This topic has been discussed before, but it never got really far into details and how-to's:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=42679
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45878
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1631

As far as I know there's only one site http://www.rhinopower.org/index.html on the web selling hardware/services for our ECU's, the guy that runs it, is a member here as well.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:20 pm 
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I think I found it.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=42679

Rhinopower is the user with the know how. You can read the stuff on his site. It is very informative. By far the best disection of the ECU

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Ah I c someone beat me to it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:02 am 
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I knew someone out there would have an interest, and ive used the F5 ecu definitions from Rhinomans website to get my start working with my F3 ecu. Ive been working with tunerpro, not sure if theres anything else out there anyone else has used to modify chips. I'm glad to see some interest out there and I'm sure that just having this thread started with the links you guys have found will surely encourage others to give this a shot. I'm currently pecking away at finishing my super budget turbo setup for my swift hopefully I'll be able to start playing with the maps in a boosted scenario soon. Have to decide a way to scale the maps for the 450cc injectors, maybe just a % reduction across the whole thing then fiddle with it from there.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:56 am 
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longshot, are you from hagersville in ontario?

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:12 am 
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Does any of you guys know of a website, besides rhinopower.org, where OBD1 hardware and software is available for our cars?
I also came across something interesting on E-bay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-Suzuki-Est ... 5990wt_906.
Is it possible to make something similar but than with with a socket? So we can install chips easily without having to pull out the ECU? If something like that could be manufactured for our cars,more than a few would be interested I think.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:07 pm 
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I think the best option would be to have a daughter board developed that plugs into the EPROM socket that would allow to you to 'flash' a new rom into the ECU. You could even use it to intercept the data from the PPU to do some datalogging. The daughterboard could be 'updated' by just plugging in a SD card into a slot somewhere easily accessible in the car. You could even use the SD card as memory for the data logging to be analyzed later.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:12 am 
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And of course nobody sells this daughter-boards, right? If I have to build it myself, it could take some time to learn the stuff, as I am busy all the time. I wonder why this things were not really developed before, is the market really that small for our swifts? There must have been a time when GTI's were popular enough.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:42 am 
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here we have 2 guys making and selling chip. 1 wants 50-60 euro for it..this one is for mk3. other guy wants 100

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:21 am 
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Tom_swift wrote:
here we have 2 guys making and selling chip. 1 wants 50-60 euro for it..this one is for mk3. other guy wants 100

You can get pretty goed chips here as well, but I want to tune my own chip, to the specific demands of my car.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:37 pm 
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jankoelbola wrote:
And of course nobody sells this daughter-boards, right? If I have to build it myself, it could take some time to learn the stuff, as I am busy all the time. I wonder why this things were not really developed before, is the market really that small for our swifts? There must have been a time when GTI's were popular enough.


It was never developed before because of a simple reason. It costs alot of money to have someone do this and Swift owners are cheap by nature. Plus there was never demand for it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:33 pm 
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If you want to build a 'basic' one and re-engineer it a bit do a search for an eprom emulator in google. There are quite a few open source ones that you can modify. You would just have to do some address mapping and also understand the maps stored in the eprom and how to modify them.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:11 am 
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TheINCRide wrote:
If you want to build a 'basic' one and re-engineer it a bit do a search for an eprom emulator in google. There are quite a few open source ones that you can modify. You would just have to do some address mapping and also understand the maps stored in the eprom and how to modify them.

Thanks for the tips. I'm still busy with small repairs(suspension, steering, etc) but once the car is working properly I'll start upgrading above stock.... the ECU being the first in the list. That'll probably be best way to get the most out of each upgrade. I'm aiming for low 15s 1/4 but I'm a student, so even if I don't want to, I have to be cheap :oops: . I'll probably have a lot of questions while working out the maps, maybe you can answer a few :?:

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:30 pm 
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TheINCRide wrote:
I think the best option would be to have a daughter board developed that plugs into the EPROM socket that would allow to you to 'flash' a new rom into the ECU. You could even use it to intercept the data from the PPU to do some datalogging. The daughterboard could be 'updated' by just plugging in a SD card into a slot somewhere easily accessible in the car. You could even use the SD card as memory for the data logging to be analyzed later.



Its a few years since I looked at the GTi ECUs. The real problem with the GTi ECUS is the lack of a diagnostic link, without it tuning and reflashing isn't a simple task. You could make a daughterboard with an FPGA hung off the bus to capture writes to RAM and to handle the reflashing but its not going to be that cheap, primarily due to the lack of 5V chips available these days. If you have a wideband interface with additional datalogging facilities then it gets more practical to tune with an emulator but otherwise when you add up the costs you're well on your way to an aftermarket ECU. Its a shame because the GTi ECU is otherwise pretty good for its age.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
Its a few years since I looked at the GTi ECUs. The real problem with the GTi ECUS is the lack of a diagnostic link, without it tuning and reflashing isn't a simple task. You could make a daughterboard with an FPGA hung off the bus to capture writes to RAM and to handle the reflashing but its not going to be that cheap, primarily due to the lack of 5V chips available these days. If you have a wideband interface with additional datalogging facilities then it gets more practical to tune with an emulator but otherwise when you add up the costs you're well on your way to an aftermarket ECU. Its a shame because the GTi ECU is otherwise pretty good for its age.



I was thinking of using something simpler like an Atmel AVR an FPGA is pretty advanced. Never considered the power requirements but yeah I think the common voltage these days is around 3.3v? Anyway it's do-able but your right about going aftermarket. With the aftermarket what it is; the only advantage really to staying with the stock ecu would be that you wouldn't have to hack up your harness.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:35 am 
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TheINCRide wrote:
Rhinoman wrote:
Its a few years since I looked at the GTi ECUs. The real problem with the GTi ECUS is the lack of a diagnostic link, without it tuning and reflashing isn't a simple task. You could make a daughterboard with an FPGA hung off the bus to capture writes to RAM and to handle the reflashing but its not going to be that cheap, primarily due to the lack of 5V chips available these days. If you have a wideband interface with additional datalogging facilities then it gets more practical to tune with an emulator but otherwise when you add up the costs you're well on your way to an aftermarket ECU. Its a shame because the GTi ECU is otherwise pretty good for its age.



I was thinking of using something simpler like an Atmel AVR an FPGA is pretty advanced. Never considered the power requirements but yeah I think the common voltage these days is around 3.3v? Anyway it's do-able but your right about going aftermarket. With the aftermarket what it is; the only advantage really to staying with the stock ecu would be that you wouldn't have to hack up your harness.

So you guys think it's a waste of time, cuz of the costs? If it'll get as expensive as an aftermarket ECU, than I prefer investing my time and $$$ on the real stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:02 am 
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i couldny find anyone to get a chip off of soo i just went n got a street tune on my car...180$$ tho

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:30 am 
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sweetnlow wrote:
i couldny find anyone to get a chip off of soo i just went n got a street tune on my car...180$$ tho

"street tune"??

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:00 pm 
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jankoelbola wrote:
So you guys think it's a waste of time, cuz of the costs? If it'll get as expensive as an aftermarket ECU, than I prefer investing my time and $$$ on the real stuff.


Well if you want data logging then yeah I would go aftermarket. If you just want to play with the maps and try and tune your car by how it feels then you can certainly build some kind of eprom emulator which would allow you to quickly adjust maps. You'd only have a seat-of-the-pants way of testing it out though.

There is ALOT of code to go through and understanding all the sub-routine jumps and what they are trying to do would be a tonne of work. There is also the rev limit you can play with.

The are cost friendly choices too which would save you all the time and that would be a Megasquirt. Simple to setup and use. Just have to make a harness for it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:43 pm 
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^^^an aftermarket ECU is totally out of range for me, so if I ever upgrade the computer, I'll probably go with Megasquirt. The good thing is that it won't be hard to sell if I don't want/need it anymore.
thanks for the help though, u saved me from wasting my time with the emulator.

*but how did people managed to tune their chips using Rhino's hardware/software, if no data-logging is possible? Isn't that available on the software?

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:04 am 
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You can't use my software/hardware to tune a GTi ECU, you have to rely on external measuring equipment, a dyno and/or wideband sensor to determine what efect the mods are having. Its much simpler to hack an ECU when you can log data, on an ECU I'm working on at the moment the diagnostic code is being modified so I can examine and log other internal parameters, like all the different values that add up to get the final injector pulse width. Values can then be plotted against IAT, CTS, MAP etc... to see how they change.
TunerPro is good software for modifying maps and when used with an Ostrich emulator you have the ability to view which addresses in the tables are being accessed - there are a good few YouTube videos showing this. The screen capture below was taken when I was developing TP definitions for a Vitara, I wasn't actually running the emulator at the time, just one of my interfaces, if I had been you would see the table entries being highlighted.

Image


On the bench I can set up a GTi with a logic analyser and emulator and that allows me to look at the programme execution and data transfers.

I was thinking about this some more and I'm sure it would be relatively simple to produce a daughterboard using a PIC with a parallel slave port to implement a diagnostic interface and allow reprogramming, those are readily available in 5V silicon and are reasonably cheap. I might build a prototype to test it but a final cost would have to reflect development time as well as the cost of components which a lot of people seem to forget.


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