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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Who wants to buy a socketed 95 3cyl 1.0 metro ECU + ostrich + programmer + eeprom + stock eprom?

I've got a tunerpro config for it too, ready for you to tune.

I got tired of trying to make the 95 ecu play nice with boost, so I got an AEM.

This setup will work great for any NA mods you throw at it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:31 am 
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That's a good deal for somebody...

What problems, specifically, did you have that made you go with the AEM?

Given that Turbo Sprints ran fine on what I have to assume are very similar ECUs I am surprised you had so much trouble. I know the Mk1 motors we had in the states are probably pretty different, but a Canadian Mk2 Turbo Sprint or Firefly should be almost identical with your set up :huh:

Maybe you went particularly big with your turbo?

I'd be interested in checking out your .xdf and .bin files, as I'd be interested in burning chips for the 3 cylinder motors as well.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:11 pm 
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1) The 95 metro ecu code keeps track of the maximum MAP value seen and uses this as the assumed barometric pressure. Under boost, this makes the ecu think that barometric pressure is higher than it is. It's a good hack for not having a second barometric map sensor for a NA motor, but won't work for a turbo motor.

2) The ecu throws errors if it sees boost.

I tried to patch the code in the ecu to disable the errors, which didn't always seem to work. I'd get error codes, which puts the ecu in to limp mode. I was wasting a lot of time studying the code and trying to figure out a way around it, but I don't have the time to spend weeks on it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:43 pm 
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I didn't even know the 3 bangers ran on a MAP sensor rather than MAF anyway, so it shows what I know, but I suspect you would have had better luck starting out with a Canadian G10 turbo ECU. Heck, even if someone just happened to have a .bin file from one of those ECUs, I bet you could have figured out what was going on.

You have determined the most difficult part of tuning with an emulator though: not enough people pulling .bins and going through the code to properly reverse engineer it all.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Well, Rhinoman should take most of the credit, he's the one who figured out where all the maps are, and gave me the disassembly to play with.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:30 pm 
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Some quick notes on using Tunerpro to modify Swift GT .bins:

Idle is usually right here (blue circles on selected cells) on the fuel map once it moves out of the warm-up circuit:

Image

My rpm labels assume you have increased your rev limiter to 8500 and changed the tables at x48E0 (stretches the fuel table to handle wider range of rpm?), x4900 (same for ignition table), and x5037 (I have no idea...). I am not clear on the exact function of each of the tables, but all performance chips with increased rev limiters have altered these tables in exactly the same way.

Rows 1 and 2 are for lift throttle conditions, 3 and 4 for load-neutral conditions (such as idle). 5-10 cover part throttle, 11-12 cover WOT, and 13 through 15 cover higher load conditions such as hills, towing, lugging the motor in a tall gear. So, for example, the selected cells in this graph cover WOT between 5000 and 8000 rpm:

Image

Note that I have rotated the graphs so they are arranged similar to the way the tables are organized for editing (right click in graph window and drag).

The ignition table is similar in that the load axis is the same and I find that I am hitting cells in the 11 and 12 columns at WOT, but the Y axis does not appear to correspond solely to rpm, so I don't know what else goes into the calculation.

Hope this helps any beginners with Tunerpro

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:53 pm 
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the mapping for tuner pro is very much like the tuner studio software i use for megasquirt.

just to see i compared your fuel mapping against my base tune for my turbo3. the profiles are surprisingly close.

sequential fuel mapping with all trims set:
Image

3 channel cop ignition mapping:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Richard, which way are the axes pointing in your graph?

It looks like they might be going from low to high from the bottom corner outwards, which would make sense. The axes in my graphs are going from low to high from the top corner--which is a little counter-intuitive if you expect to be seeing the highest numbers for fuel at high load and rpm. FYI, though the tune pictured is one I am working on, I don't know that's a very good one...

I really don't know why the stock ECU uses such high fuel and timing values for lift-throttle and closed throttle coasting conditions. There is a fuel cut that prevents the injectors from firing, so maybe those values are there to insure immediate richening as soon as you dip back in?

Also, I've learned that hard acceleration at WOT only falls at rows 11 and 12 in my car (probably due to lower weight and gearing) and others are seeing WOT on rows 12, 13 and sometimes 14 (Thanks to Jankoelbola for his help testing tunes on his emulator).

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:46 pm 
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my high fuel load is in row 11 and 12 and not at wot.

also, my ignition mapping is probably way too hot for the boost i'll be running but this is just my base tune to start and idle. i haven't started to dial out advance for actual boost conditions.

i was running a spoofed 6 cylinder mode for batch fire and when i reconfigured the hardware for full sequential injection the mapping changed pretty radically and i have to start the tweaking all over again.

tuning for batch fire (or modified siamese) injection for the twincam in n/a mode will probably be much closer to your mapping.

and yeah, i think that there's a difference in the mapping displays between tuner studio and tuner pro. it looks like your picture shows idle at the opposite corner from mine. the 3d curves look similar but opposite.

the only other local guy i know that uses tuner pro is working with a v6 camaro and his fuel mapping is very different than mine was in spoofed 6 cylinder mode, probably because i was modeling an inline 6 instead of a dual injector tbi v6.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:51 pm 
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So I picked up a Cultus ECU and chip to work with.

I want to try running a knock sensor, either by transplanting the Cultus code into a NA export ECU, or by just wiring it in to pin A15 for the Cultus ECU.

There are huge differences in the base code on the Cultus chip. The chip looks like it would not be a good idea in a non-Cultus ECU (outrageously advanced timing). There's one Fuel map and two (identical) timing maps

Rev limiter is set at 8100, which is different than either the OEM Cultus or any other tuner chip. The Cultus code seems to indicate that there is a different MAF. Can anyone vouch for what the differences are for the JDM version, if any? I saw this article on this Salvadoran Swift Site:

http://suzukiclubsv.foroactivos.net/t515-diferencias-entre-maf-throttle-body-de-swift-gti-y-cultus-gti

The pictures show slightly different MAFs, but there's no picture looking head-on to see if the diameter is different. They look very similar. Also I'm pretty sure my non-bored Cultus intake is still 45mm, so I'm not sure what's up with the larger TB.

Anybody successfully used a Cultus ECU and wired in a knock sensor to pin A15? What about a chip meant for a Cultus ECU in non-Cultus ECU or motor (looks like a terrible idea from the maps)? Anybody got an extra knock sensor that will work for cheap and/or tips for installation?

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Last edited by Teeth on Mon May 19, 2014 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Yeah it looks like the electrical plug on one of the MAF's is different.. Not sure which is which since I don't speak Spanish and I read it even less!

Anyway what code was on the Cultus ECU?

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 11:32 pm 
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I4 part no. 33920-64E 0
DOM
FI-024

I4, I2 side-by-side:

This part is the same

Image

The I4 has a bunch more hardware on this side:

Image

Closeup of hardware (sorry about glare):

Image

Missing stuff, I2:

Image

I am guessing that stuff is associated with the knock sensor :( so it's not just in the code.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:46 pm 
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What I find interesting about the I2 board is they have the holes for the components but they never printed the part# on the board.

There also appears to be some sort of proprietary chip there that has no standard numbers on it that I can make out.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Yeah, that would make retrofitting the bits to turn another ECU into an I4 pretty hard--I guess you'd have to pull that IC, pull a .bin and burn it to whatever you could find that looks like it??

I caught the I4 doing what it does when there's no knock sensor or it hears something it doesn't like on the emulator though, which is hitting the alternate timing map.

Which is pretty cool, as I can then control both the no-knock map and the alternate timing map. The chip I was looking at actually runs identical maps, effectively disabling the O2 sensor :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 5:05 pm 
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if i'm not mistaken, some world market swifts use a knob on a small module to trim the fuel instead of an o2 sensor.

i think that you are right about the missing components vs. the populated main board of the cultus ecu. that stuff is part of the knock sensor circuitry.

for what it's worth, the cultus used the same knock sensor as the turbo3 cars. there is a casting boss on all the blocks located where the knock sensor is mounted that you can bore and tap to fit the threads on the knock sensor.

on my blue monster i used a bosch style knock sensor with an aftermarket "knocksense" module that works with megasquirt controllers. i think that i have an oem suzuki knock sensor installed on my black monster turbo3. if you really need one to dope out the cultus ecu and code i can make it available. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:56 am 
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In a random note, when I traded for the I4, I socketed an I2 ecu and sent it in exchange.

That gave me yet another .bin, because, apparently, I2 ECUs may come with either an SKBA102 or SKBA103 chip. Unfortunately, the skba102 chip was damaged when removed, but I was able to recover enough information to learn a few things:

Most importantly, the I2 and I6 ECUs appeared to be identical, but this timing map confused me, because all the other maps were the same:

Image

I thought at first that it was possible that the skba103 .bin file on Rhinoman's site had been modified slightly from stock, but the .bin I pulled from the skba102 chip proves it hasn't. The I2 primary timing map is more agressive than either the I6 or I3, which is a bit of a surprise. I guess if you have to run a stock ECU, the I2 is likely the best choice to make power.

The mystery I am still working on (and which will have to wait until my car has a working transmission again) is the different MAF calibration used in the Cultus ECUs. I'm kind of surprised that I can't seem to get a %100 clear answer on whether the Cultus MAF is different. There are plenty of unanswered questions here:

There were Suzuki Sport parts made, yes, but were they on all Cultus Gti's from the factory? I've been looking at Cultus photos and the MAFs appear identical to me--could Suzuki have put different eproms in the cars with the factory option, but kept the ECU numbers the same? Are there advantages to using the alternate calibration with the regular MAF?

The MAF calibration is not radically different :huh: :

OEM North American and all tuner chips except Suzuki Sport:

Image

OEM F6 .bin as available from Rhinopower.org and Suzuki Sport .bin:

Image

Anybody out there calibrated a tune for a different MAF (for OEM ECU or standalone), and if so, is it possible to see how to do it in the OEM ECU by looking at the differences here? I believe the answer is that in theory, yes, but I'm not sure how one obtains the numbers or exactly what they mean...

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:57 pm 
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Interesting find.. I have always noticed that my I2 ecu (un-modified) has always had more grunt in the low end of the revs then my chipped F3.. It just seems 'rougher' in terms of additude...

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Hello guys. I haven't been on here for some time but I have done a little work on the disassembly. My I2 ECU is currently dead, waiting for repair, can someone with an emulator have a look at the table at CC20h and tell me if that is the ignition advance at idle?
Teeth has confirmed that the RPM points that I determined are sound so I will put the RPM values into the disassembly and that should chuck out a bunch more stuff. It looks like there is a high load fuelling table to sniff out so I'll take a look for that as well.

I have a plan to connect a Swift MAF to a Vitara MAF, bolted to my roofrack and then drive down the road and log the values. The Vitara MAF vales are known so that would get me a pretty good estimation of the Swift MAF values. I need to source a Swift MAF though, anyone want to lend me a known good one?


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Does anyone know what the frequency of the VSS is? that would be useful.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:43 pm 
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There is some knock sensor information here that might be relevant, its an Hitachi patent from the time.

http://www.google.com.tr/patents/US4612902


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:02 am 
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Just a quick correction:

I happened to come across an F3 .bin randomly on the internet and the timing map is identical to the I2. The Euro-spec ECUs don't get the timing bump that the North American ECUs get, but it's important to note that the increase is not in the WOT part of the map anyway. The fuel maps are slightly different between F and I series ecus, but not enough to make a huge difference and the timing maps are the same.

The later ECUs are dyno proven to make a little more power, but why is not obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:26 am 
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When you are comparing ECUs with identical software you need to look at which configuration resistors are fitted, those change a number of the maps that the ECU uses.
You've probably realised this but in the parameter tree you can select 'View by Parameter Category' and it will show you how I've grouped the tables. I will update the xdf to indicate which tables are pairs, ie one of them is selected by the config resistors'


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:11 pm 
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rhino, the vss, vehicle speed sensor?

isn't that just a reed switch mounted in the instrument cluster that is cycled by a magnet spinning on the speedo hub?

i'm not following your question about it's frequency. it should be from zero with the car at rest to the maximium rpm of the speedo cable.

just call it dc to light. :lol:

seriously, just doing a quick count in my head the vss is pulsed from zero to 400 pulses per minute at around 60 mph in high gear. the vss count is coming from the transmission differential and is variable by road speed and only associated to engine speed via gearing.

remember that i'm old and my math can also be variable, especially when i'm ball parking a figure. =)

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My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Richard probably the ECU looks at the rate of change in the speed of the vehicle relative to the TPS position to calculate engine load, and thereby how to modify timing and fueling.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:07 pm 
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i don't know.

the only problem i noticed with a busted reed switch was a decel issue. i know that the idle rpm stays a little higher when the car is rolling to a stop and then drops to the base idle. when the vss is broken the idle drops like a rock to the base idle.

i robbed a vss out of another cluster and replaced the broken one right away so i don't know what else could go on.

at least i could identify it as a reed switch.

the guys who connect the economy readouts have run into problems with switch bounce so whatever electronics are reading the vss must not be really picki about a glitchy count. :o

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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