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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:33 pm 
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IIRC the ECU is non-learning.

Any 'gains in power' while driving are all in your head.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, now I know what isn't happening, and if everything is working right, swapping chips whenever I want is not a problem

I definitely have something going on though, and it's not in my head, it's just not due to the ECU "learning".

Maybe Sandro's open loop maps aren't working as well as the closed loop in my car, or there really are problems with the signal booster set up. I'll swap back to stock again and see whether I am still down on power intermittently--that would point to the signal booster as a likely culprit. Given that my motor is mostly stock other than a header, it wouldn't be a big surprise if Sandro's chip doesn't work as well as I'd hoped either, we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:40 am 
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the obd1 ecu does not "learn." it reads the sensors and calls the mapping, that's it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:34 pm 
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I haven't had any time to look at this for a while, someone else was working on an emulator with diagnostics so I left them to it, I haven't heard how they are progressing, maybe they will chip in (pun intended). I have an I2 on the bench with a dodgy CAS interface so I do have an opportunity to have a quick play.
If the ECU has an O2 sensor then it learns, thats its purpose, how long it takes to dial itself in I can't say, if the tune is out in different areas of the mapping then it will be forever trying to retune.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:11 am 
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Quote:
it reads the sensors and calls the mapping


Well, if that's an iterative loop, then I guess that's "learning". The performance with Sandro's chip is still inconsistent in ordinary driving, though thankfully WOT seems to get things moving more predictably, which again isn't all that surprising given that I am using a tune developed for a substantially different motor. I can't compare how the car runs on the stock chip because it won't run on it in the extender--I wish I had a burner to make a copy immediately, as I fear I must have damaged it at some point in the process.

I hadn't planned on getting this deep into this, but now that I can swap chips so easily I might have to get the tools I need to burn my own maps. I'd like one for improved mpg and/or emissions as well as power.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Teeth wrote:

Well, if that's an iterative loop, then I guess that's "learning". The performance with Sandro's chip is still inconsistent in ordinary driving, though thankfully WOT seems to get things moving more predictably, which again isn't all that surprising given that I am using a tune developed for a substantially different motor. I can't compare how the car runs on the stock chip because it won't run on it in the extender--I wish I had a burner to make a copy immediately, as I fear I must have damaged it at some point in the process.

I hadn't planned on getting this deep into this, but now that I can swap chips so easily I might have to get the tools I need to burn my own maps. I'd like one for improved mpg and/or emissions as well as power.

I was planning on doing the same, but wanted to wait a bit for the emulator. I guess it will take more than expected :(.
About the so called "learning"... my car does need some time to adjust. I normally have to wait a couple of days after adjusting idle, before knowing for sure it's where I want it.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I use an Ostrich emulator which is well proven and when used with TunerPro gives address hitting which helps to dial in the mapping.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
I use an Ostrich emulator which is well proven and when used with TunerPro gives address hitting which helps to dial in the mapping.

I thought you where building one

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:39 am 
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Speaking of Ostrich and Moates products:

Though the car runs and makes surprisingly good power, I know have some other information from a local friend who tried a similar approach in a DSM. Apparently the socket booster only works well with 24pin GM ECUs and doesn't really use all 28 pins despite the switch. That explains why the power has been so inconsistent, and likely the code 51's.

So, stay away from that thing. I will now have to desolder that because there wasn't enough space in the box to put it on a socket. The good news is that the ribbon cable might work fine without the booster on our ECUs--it's mostly the GM 24 pin units that don't work well.

I am considering using and Ostrich and Tunerpro anyway but I am just scratching the surface of my research--does anyone have a .bin file for Tunerpro that they are willing to share as a baseline? Rhinoman, I can't tell from your posts whether you are actually using the Ostrich in the car or just using it on the bench somehow to do whatever it is you are doing that we are all excited about.

Anyone know if it's possible to run in closed loop using an Ostrich?

Edit: I am starting to look more closely at Rhino's website documentation and el malo's posts. I am starting to get the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Where's El Malo in this discussion? He and Rhinoman are the only others I can find on the forum using an Ostrich emulator and I'd like to hear about what they did exactly to make it work.

For example, did either of you use the Moates socket booster described above? I am surprised more people aren't using an emulator as it is a neat solution for anybody that hasn't modified their motor so thoroughly as to require running on different inputs (ITBs, for example). What about an I6 ecu? Anybody know if I can use the same .xdf and bin file Rhinoman already has for the I2 to tune it? They don't appear to be any different except for the eprom number.

Anybody near me have a chip burner I can use to extract a .bin?

Things I think I've learned recently:

Mk2 (F series) ECU's don't do what people sometimes refer to as"learn" because they don't have short or long term trim functions based on O2 sensor feedback--neither do chipped ECUs. Not sure why the latter is true, as I don't see any reason for forcing open loop, but that seems to be the common practice (maybe it is an unintended consequence of making chips to work with all ECUs--anybody want to explain?).

Mk3 ECUS do operate with trim functions unless chipped, though some markets had units that operated on long term trim defined by the AFR adjuster rather than O2 sensor feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:02 pm 
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Rhinoman helped me get a socket in to my 1995 1.0 Geo, and I was using the Ostrich II with some xdfs rhinoman came up with for it. He figured out where the spark and fuel tables were, and it really can be used to tune, but I kinda gave up on it. I wanted to use it with my turbo, but code in the eeprom hates boost, and throws all sorts of errors if you try to throw boost at it, leaning the fuel out :(

Teeth wrote:
Where's El Malo in this discussion? He and Rhinoman are the only others I can find on the forum using an Ostrich emulator and I'd like to hear about what they did exactly to make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:02 pm 
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I bought a "Willem" burner direct from China on ebay for $25.

Image

It works! Not easy to figure out from the included documentation, thank goodness for Google. No, USB parallel port adapters don't work. If you need to use some variety of pci express card you'll need to Google io.dll and Willem.

Now I can see the data in Tuner pro!

Fuel maps:

F6
Image

I2/I6 (I can confirm they are the same)

Image

210/340

Image

Ignition:

F6
Image

I2/I6

Image

I2 alternate fuel map ? (I did not capture this one, downloaded from Rhinoman)

Image

210/340

Image

I figured out what the socket booster is doing--it only reads the first 128k of the chip. Hence the OEM chip won't work, but the 210/340 chip, which has the program burned on it twice to work in both F and I series ECUs will.

All of the eproms I bought are written to FFs and need to be erased, so I'll need to pick up a pacifier sterilizer :lol:

Because the only empty chip I had right away was a 512k, as an experiment I modified a bin to use the 8600 rev limiter (or so I thought) keep closed loop, substitute stock values where the 210/340 was leaner than stock and use the 210/340 ignition table. I wrote it four times to make it a 512k .bin and successfully burned it to the chip.

Unfortunately I should have edited the rev limiter by hand because tunerpro wrote both values to 7310 instead, so when I went for a test drive the car shut off completely at 7310, confusing the crap out of me until I double checked what I burned :oops:

At least I know it works. Time to get a pacifier sanitizer to erase my eproms... =)

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Wow nice! So you are able to burn your own chips now... are you planning on using an emulator or something else to "design" the right chip for your current set-up? Or are you going to "trial and error" until you are happy with the results?

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:02 pm 
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I'll probably trial and error until I am unhappy with the results and then get an emulator so that I can see what's happening in real time and get get it right.


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Teeth wrote:
I'll probably trial and error until I am unhappy with the results and then get an emulator so that I can see what's happening in real time and get get it right.


:lol: :ez_lol:


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:32 am 
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OK, now I'm interested in this thread!
Teeth, what are the units of measure on the axis of the spark and fuel maps above?


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:52 am 
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ABI wrote:
OK, now I'm interested in this thread!
Teeth, what are the units of measure on the axis of the spark and fuel maps above?


I wish I knew! That's one of the problems with this approach--it's not too hard to find the tables in the code, but it's another thing to figure out what the conversions are in Tunerpro. Degrees of advance is easy enough, and it doesn't take too much thinking to figure out which axis is MAF and which is RPM, but units for fuel? Unit conversions for RPM and MAF? We're dependent on Rhinoman as apparently the only person in world (or at least on the internet) that has created an .xdf definition file for use in Tunerpro.

But it doesn't seem to be impossible to figure out--I plan to look at some other .xdf's available for more popular cars to see if I can learn how it's done and start adding the unit and axis information.

The software is free and you can get a head start by downloading Rhinoman's .xdf. I've attached the bin from the I6 chip so there's something to play with if anybody want's to help!

The bin file is NOT a .zip file, just change the extension back to .bin. Not sure what's up with the forum's limited attachment options :(


Attachments:
skba105copy.zip [32 KIB]
Downloaded 154 times
skba105copy.zip [32 KIB]
Downloaded 114 times
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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Bought a UV fingernail polish curing device for $8 this morning to erase the "refurbished" chips I bought. I hadn't thought of that and figured I had 6 chips to go through before I decided what to do about it.

I am not a big fan of waiting for international shipping of impossibly low quality crap that is likely to be broken on arrival. And that costs $30 or less. Anything else costs over $100 which is ridiculous for something that is merely a timer and a light fixture in a box. So then I was stuck again when I realized my chips were not clean erased before shipping. It's not like I know what I'm doing or anything.

So the fingernail thing takes more than 50 minutes and less than two hours to erase,with the chip almost in contact with the bulb.

But it works :D

The hybrid tune I put together is working pretty well, though it takes a long time to get to closed loop. Before then the car still wants to run a little lean under part throttle, though you don't need as much gas to richen it back up. After closed loop kicks in, you only get the parts of the map that were already making power when you floor it.

So I still have some work to do, but no more crazy lean cruise, mostly good numbers when into the throttle (a very short rich spike below 12 followed by 12.3 to 12.8 under hard acceleration. Works like the stock ecu, because it is.

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:12 pm 
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$8 eprom eraser, formerly used to dry fingernail polish. Cheap paperback is there to set chip closer to the bulb.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Rather than buy an Ostrich, I am borrowing one for free :D

Unfortunately, the stupid socket booster that I've been worried about since I began this journey prevents real time addressing from working properly. So I haven't learned anything new with it yet.

So I guess the socket booster really has to go--I hope nothing breaks during the second desoldering operation :(


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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:57 pm 
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It was the socket booster.

Moates was kind of enough to desolder the old one for me, solder in a proper socket, and include a new booster that allows data tracing at no charge other than the RMS shipping. I've had some trouble sorting out their products, but they are complicated and they've tolerated my failure to follow instructions.

The ECU only hits the first fuel table.

The new socket booster worked well enough, but read the tables differently somehow, causing a lean condition during cruising situations when a closed loop system would trim back to stoich. This is what was going on all along and it wasn't good. However, it was possible to trace through the booster and use the Ostrich to tune away the lean spots pretty quickly while my wife drove around our rural neighborhood. So that's reason enough to use one if your ECU won't talk to an Ostrich any other way, but otherwise it's easier to leave it out if you can get away with it. Apparently YMMV is an understatement, as there are many that apparently need one that are based on the same processors as the Swift.

Once the booster was gone, however, the 210/340 chip maps worked exactly as I had expected them to in the first place. I still found a few cells where I still decided to change things, but there were only minor changes and I didn't see any AFR's to get too worried about.

Here’s what else I’ve learned:

I still don’t know where the closed loop switch is.

I found that by keeping only the values that were different from both skba103 and skba 105 and keeping the latter when they weren’t, I now have a tune that acts like Sandro’s but has closed loop operation just like stock when I plug in the simulated narrowband, or runs in open loop when I unplug it .

Here’s a big one: The fuel table is limited to just over 6,000 rpm in any tune, so I expect that’s one reason you’d want to go standalone if you went turbo. There is some way to monkey with the way the map is “stretched” over the power band though, because the trace on the 210/340 maps appears to jump to 2000 more quickly and therefore devotes more space for tuning the rest of the powerband up to 6k. After that, load may fluctuate across the bottom of the map but you’re stuck with last row. Load increases from back to front and left to right in the graphs, which is not was I was thinking.

The ECU won’t trace ignition properly, with or without socket booster L It skips all over table 2. I don’t know that I’m qualified to mess with it, anyway, wish I had a knock sensor. Sandro’s map seems to work fine on premium, so I’ll keep it but still wish I had a better idea of what going on. I don’t hear what experienced tuners say they hear.

=)

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:56 am 
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I bought a used Ostrich for $80, the same one I borrowed before.

I now know where the closed loop switch is in the code :wink:

I also know which table "stretches" the fuel table so that idle starts on the top row instead of the second row...

I've also chased my lean running issue down and ruled out the tune on the chip, the socket booster, vacuum leaks, timing etc. I now believe my TPS doesn't work well when cold due to age, but it could probably still be something else. It was particularly difficult sorting out the problem because I made a bunch of changes around the same time, and the issue did not occur consistently either.

I'll keep the problems and fixes out of this thread and update here, where I started: http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55614&start=25#p419532

In the meantime the Ostrich works great, and with a change in baud rate I can now trace timing in real time too. I am compiling a library of .bins to learn more about what the ECU does, but at minimum I can now see which tables can be altered to tune and which tables are associated simply with the differences between one ECU part number and another.

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:52 am 
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You are really figuring this thing out.

Will you be burning costums chips in the future?

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1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:35 pm 
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instant_shine wrote:
You are really figuring this thing out.

Will you be burning costums chips in the future?


Nah, I'll just use my emulator :lol:

Seriously, I think the emulator is the way to go, but I suspect you're really asking if I would ever sell a custom chip now that I can burn them.

That was not my original intention, but I've spent enough time figuring this out that is tempting. The main thing preventing me from doing so was that I was having problems getting a good tune working on my own car and I didn't want to sell anyone something I hadn't tested. I am getting closer, but there are a few more things I want to make sure I've got right before I would burn a chip for anyone else. For example, I think I would recommend that people with ECU's designed to run in closed loop not run a chip tune that forces open loop operation because so far I can't see any difference between forcing open loop in the code and simply unplugging your O2 (which will then throw a CEL) if you want the small increase in "response" that you'll get with open loop. That in itself would be huge for those who want to leave closed loop in place simply because no one currently sells a chip that will do this, but I want to make sure that I am 100% correct about that statement first.

But there are other considerations too--there's been a lot of bad blood in the community over the years, apparently, because it's so easy to copy and "steal" a chip tune and then churn out copies for sale. I started this learning process when I got one of Sandro's 210/340 chips used and then recently bought a Tom's II chip from him directly, so it wouldn't be too cool, in my opinion, if I made copies of either of those chips and offered them for sale.

So I won't do that. If you have a Cultus-spec motor running 210/340 cams with an I2 ECU, then you should get your chip from Sandro. Likewise if you have an F5 ECU and want to run a Toms II.

I am considering offering custom chips burned as a "service" for TeamSwift members only (to keep the volume down) however. I'd like to try to match a tune to what a given customer's modifications are, but more importantly, match a tune to the customer's ECU. For example, the Tom's II chip was built on the F5 ECU code. Because all the "important" tables are the same across all G13B Swifts, the Tom's II chip runs my car just fine, but because I have an I6 ECU, there is a solid CEL all the time--not any codes stored, just a CEL that won't turn off. Why lose your OBD capability entirely when you don't have to? I found my car ran exactly the same when I copied just the "important" tables over to the base code from my stock I6 chip, but now there's no CEL and I get a code when I should get a code.

How does the community feel about this? Is this something that's worth trying to do? I can't help but uses pieces of code from the library of tunes I've collected--is this ethical? How much would you pay?

Discuss...

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 Post subject: Re: chipping ecus
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:21 am 
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Teeth wrote:
.....so it wouldn't be too cool, in my opinion, if I made copies of either of those chips and offered them for sale.

So I won't do that....


i salute you! :clap: :clap:

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