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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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What's would you like to have the most?
T3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
T3 modded 33%  33%  [ 8 ]
GTi G13B 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
GTi G13B modded 50%  50%  [ 12 ]
4-valve MKIII G13BB 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
4-valve MKIII G13BB w/AC 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
4-valve MKIII G13BB modded 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
G10 w/AC 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
G10 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 24
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:52 pm 
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OMG !!! :shock: :shock:
A couple (and I use that term loosely) of you fellas really need to get a room.
[ ewww ewwww ewwwwww ]

Trying to NOT hijack this thread, but . . . . . I'd think 4-valve MKIII G13BB modded would make one of my 'verts be a vicious Go Kart.
As a matter of fact, I've been keeping an eye on Craigslist for a '98 or later Metro with 13BB and standard for cheap.
My yellow ragtop's G10 and factory 4.40 are worn out and need an upgrade.

It's either that or a special G10 rebuild, higher gears and one of those AMR500 like Roushvert07 posted. THAT would be kewl. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:03 pm 
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wikipedia is a bad place to try to get real info on these cars. too many "experts" have fiddled with the page.

the g13b dohc 16v engine, according to suzuki, makes 101 hp not 100hp. but eh, what's 1%?

this sort of poll always puts me in a bind. i love the turbo3 and started back in 2003 by playing with that power unit. by 2005 i had done twincams and i like them as well.

for instant, drop in performance the twincam gets you there quickly with minimal expense. the turbo3 will make 90hp in stock trim. and that's where the comparison goes quickly off track. meaningful improvements in hp on the turbo3 start to burn a hole in your wallet and if you really want to push up the fun factor you will be over the $6000 mark pretty quickly. the object of my desire has always been the mk2 89 to 91 version and i have turned out a couple of fire breathing, heavily modified g10t engines.

but then i also have built some screaming twincam verts and you couldn't pry me from my current red twincam vert for love nor money. :wink:

so, a poll like this that requires me to choose one type is an instant loser. i have both, i like both, and there's no reason why i can't have both a t3 and a twincam car. :-P

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:08 pm 
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Pop in a cam, crank up the boost, and a T3 will destroy any G13 with twice the expense and effort put in, and still live forever.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:32 pm 
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Don't you have to upgrade the fueling in a modded T3 above 10 psi?

Some people just crank up the boost with no wideband and say "it runs good but it sputters and coughs sometimes..."

But then I don't hear much about melted pistons. Maybe the stock fueling is insufficient to make enough HP to melt pistons? I don't buy it.

Go figure.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:20 pm 
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In the Poll Race, the T3 was strong out of the gate, but the G13B is showing top end :!:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:00 pm 
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Nofur Trunions wrote:
Don't you have to upgrade the fueling in a modded T3 above 10 psi?

Some people just crank up the boost with no wideband and say "it runs good but it sputters and coughs sometimes..."

But then I don't hear much about melted pistons. Maybe the stock fueling is insufficient to make enough HP to melt pistons? I don't buy it.

Go figure.


Pretty sure you missed the part about the stock ECU cutting fuel at around 10psi worth of airflow. So adding fuel is unnecessary since you can't get above 10psi with the stock ECU.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:10 pm 
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I don't want to get off-topic asking about the turbo ECU, but....

Some people talk about the MAP bleed and Temp trick to run turbos on stock ECU.

So in 25 words or less, what are the "more boost" options for the t3?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:17 pm 
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A reliable solution that doesn't rely on MacGuyver tricks to be truly safe over 10psi? As far as I'm concerned, four words: standalone ECU and wideband.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:59 pm 
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CJDavE wrote:

Pretty sure you missed the part about the stock ECU cutting fuel at around 10psi worth of airflow. So adding fuel is unnecessary since you can't get above 10psi with the stock ECU.


It cuts fuel based on airflow, which is dependent on a number of things. Most of my T3's never hit fuel cut, and the only one that did was the 89, and only during winter weather. It can be tuned out by tightening the VAF spring. For medium boost, under 20, a pressure switch to the cold start injector, triggered at about 10 psi works. Over that, an extra injector controller will do the trick. Standalone, MS, etc. is the best, but not necessary.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:40 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Pop in a cam, crank up the boost, and a T3 will destroy any G13 with twice the expense and effort put in, and still live forever.

.
WINNING.!
.
.
.
.........JV&S
.
.
.
.

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t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:15 pm 
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I'm an Idiot! :thwack:
and I can't believe no one commented on a GLARING POLL OMISSION!

I'm all thinking Turbos, DOHC, and 4-valve and omitted probably the most iconic of all the Cultus/Metros:


<drum roll>









....wait for it......










.... it's coming....









...almost here...









Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you...


the....




XFi



Seriously?

Not one person.... not one.... ???? :huh:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:17 pm 
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buddy, you are in the way wrong place for that! :-P

teamswift has always been a performance oriented forum. we laugh at an xfi over here. those cars can't get the hell out of their own way. :blackeye:

i mod over at geometroforum which is where the xfi is revered so i understand your point, but seriously, an xfi is slow! :roll:

when i started at teamswift 14 years ago i was the black sheep in the bunch because i like geo metro verts. teamswift began from a blog about doing a junk yard turbo project on a swift gt and it took years for the forum to grow to the point where it included sections for 3 bangers, turbo3 cars, and 8 valve g13 cars. one of the newest sections here covers discussions on verts and it took a lot of lobbying to make that happen.

teamswift is the place to find archived information on improving the suspension and overall performance through field tested modifications. if you want to hot rod a suzuki engine, this is where you will find your inspiration. if you want info on aero mods, teamswift has a lot of great threads. but you won't find a great amount of enthusiasm here for a slow ass xfi. :lol:

oh, and it requires very thick skin over here, too. these guys are gonna' wear you out for that one. =)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:01 pm 
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What is an XFi?? :huh: :huh:

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1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:55 pm 
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instant_shine wrote:
What is an XFi?? :huh: :huh:


Its Suzuki engine stuffed up by GM thinking they could do better ... :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:25 pm 
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XFi? Oh.... ah... er.... oh wait.... ER! Yeah, that's what it is, it's an ER.

Hey, I'll bet if I had an XFi on the POLL, it would have gotten checked a couple times! You know some G10 folks lurk here!

But, while MPG attracts me to the G10, neither MPG nor HP impress me.

The real supremacy of these cars is WEIGHT!

With WEIGHT, the competition is LEGENDARY. Think LOTUS! I told my buddy my Turbo Sprint weighed 1633 and he laughed, it was lighter than his 1650 Lotus Europa - but then he has one of the later "bloated" series. I love Colin Chapman's "adding lightness" to a design and the fact that the wheels sometimes came off his race cars (!)

Want to have some fun? Try to find cars that weigh less than 1600# in the US market. I have to laugh, the Fiat 500 Abarth is something like 2550# - almost 1000# heavier than a G10 - I'd hate to get hit by one, would be like a depleted Uranium 30mm from an A10.

If these Swifts/Sprints/Metros had 200 hp, or even 150 hp, well... one can dream. I'm too old and broke to mod one out. I'll turn up my boost as far as spending no extra money will get me and that will be it for me.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:56 pm 
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Nofur Trunions wrote:
Didn't know Monster's car was engineer in Australia. Wouldn't have guessed it since I thought he was a factory racer.

Your list of exotics, they're mods right? (My Poll was meant to list factory cars only, but I threw modded in there since so many people do that - especially with turbos.)

The purpose of my Poll was to try to establish the Food Chain for these cars. I figured it was Turbo -v- G13B. Rare -v- Rare. So that leaves the G13BB as the only readily available performance platform.

I have just bot an 87 Turbo Sprint and haven't driven it yet - it's still in dry dock. And last fall, I missed out on a 60k GTi for $2500 in CA which I would have bought. I don't know which I'd like the best, but I've been leaning towards the G13B. Of course, the real question is how will the Turbo run if I turn up the boost to the maximum given stock fueling.

What is both good and bad is that these rare factory cars just don't bring much money. Of course that means I can afford them, but it also means there is not a lot of aftermarket for them. The fact that the Cultus is a Pike's Peak racer just doesn't generate any mass excitement which is unfortunate.
I don't think any Suzuki car met any excitement in North America, luckily they went unnoticed, to the import scene of the late 90's and early 21'st century. But the G13B does hold respect in real motor sport enthusiast, who practiced any kind of racing around the world.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:00 am 
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Suzuki dropped the ball both with the T3 and the G13B.

I find that very frustrating.

While I have a Turbo Sprint (still haven't driven it yet), I wanted a GTi. The thought of playing with cam phasing would be just too much.

Hummmm.... wonder if someone would want to trade...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:50 am 
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Nofur Trunions wrote:
Suzuki dropped the ball both with the T3 and the G13B.

I find that very frustrating.

While I have a Turbo Sprint (still haven't driven it yet), I wanted a GTi. The thought of playing with cam phasing would be just too much.

Hummmm.... wonder if someone would want to trade...


You keep contradicting yourself ....

Suzuki has never dropped the ball with the T3 or G13B (if you are talking of the twin cam) they were part of the start of the 'pocket rocket' regime of the late 80's that has continued across the world.

These cars continue to draw the enthusiast and I know that many of the guys racing modified's are seeking the G13B engine to place under their lightweight cars to keep under the 1300 class

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:17 am 
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I'm by no means an expert on the Suzuki Swift - I've only seen one base model. I'm from the Metro camp and have just bot a Sprint Turbo. So if what follows is incorrect, I apologize and look forward to being schooled. Also, I'm talking only USA market which is a far cry from the world market.

I disagree. T3 and G13B cars were only "sporadically" offered in the USA Cultus line. They were rare from the start and basically unobtanium now.

The T3 was dropped for the USA MKII market and the USA G13B was dropped for the USA MKIII market. NOTE: I don't know if there was a USA G13B MKI, and would like to know.

In the USA, there was "nothing" available in the MKIII anything. Not a T3 and not a G13B. I personally take the G13BB as an "in your face you aren't getting a G13B" insult.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:22 pm 
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The North American market did not have a Cultus line it was Swift .
The North American car culture is different than anywhere else in the world (( people want big cars here )).
Due to low sales the North American 1995 + swift etc was designed for the North America market to boost sales .
The North American market just does not have the love for Suzuki car products that Suzuki has elsewhere in the world market .

As for aftermarket parts Suzuki had a lot of race parts for the Cultus / Swift the SUZUKI SPORT Catalog was full of great stuff for racing .

I look back now and remember when we started building the Swift GT at CAMI , Remembering the loading docks stuffed with the GT DOHC motors :D
The parking lot at work at CAMI was full of GT Swifts and Trackers that the workers bought :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:13 am 
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having spent many hours consulting the mk2 turbo3 master schematic i can tell you that it is marked with an indicator that refers to "california emissions."

i believe that suzuki had intended to market the canadian market only mk2 turbo3 in the usa but was met with bureaucratic red tape that eventually led to the cessation of production for the turbo3.

i wouldn't characterize suzuki as having "dropped the ball." it was more like governmental oversight was their problem.

also, suzuki marketed cars independently along side the geo metro in the usa from 1989 thru 1997, even past the production of the mk4 big body cars and offered the g13 8 valve engine in the mk3 swift chassis long before geo offered it in any us offerings.

i'm really not sure where you are getting your information. a lot of it is wrong. :-P

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:07 am 
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I realize the Feds/EPA/CAFE/NHTSA/etc. are probably more to blame - just consider how they stamped out Lean Burn technology which produced phenomenal mpg results.

As far as where I'm getting my information, it's from the internet. Wiki has a fair amount of info on the Cultus but there are obvious omissions. Anyone can edit/amend Wiki - it would be nice if folks in the know would fix it up. Or at least if there was a single site that had all the information. (Considering the variety of offerings in all markets, that might be a daunting challenge.)

I have not found a single reference to a USA market G13B anything so from what I've found, the USA market had the T3 MKI and the G13B MKII and that's all folks.

And I speak as if the Swift, Sprint, Metro (Geo and Chevy) are Cultus. So purists say the Cultus was never brought to the USA market, but I say it was in those various rebadgings. I think this contributes to no one site having all information. For example, Swift information does not include Sprint and Metro and surely not actual Cultus markets.

So where should all the information be kept? The only choice that makes sense is the Cultus to cover all the rebadging and markets. And then you have purists that say the Cultus was never offered in the USA market. I think Wiki was right in this regard and attempts organize all under the Suzuki Cultus.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:04 pm 
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Now that discussion has clarified that your intention was to poll all global engine based variants used in the Suzuki Cultus platform from MK1 in 1984 to MK4 (North America only) through 2001, or through 2016+ for the MK3 that may still be in production in Pakistan:

So these are the main missing engine variants in the poll:
G16B 16v in Cultus/Swift sedans
G10 4 cylinder in Pakistan Cultus 4 Dr. Hatchback
G13B 8 valve 4 cylinder


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:11 pm 
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My original intent was to establish the consensus of the Top-of-the-Food Chain regarding the T3 and G13B which were the only USA performance engines. Then I added the G13BB, then Modded, then AC, and then a G10 - I wasn't even thinking XFi/ER but you know, I've gotten one vote for the G10 and I'll bet I'd have gotten a few more if I had said XFi/ER which is too bad.

No, I'm talking USA markets only. I'm not talking about people that are importing 25 year old non-USA market cars either. Stories of importing a MKII T3 from Canada are rare and many claim it's never been done legally.

I attempt to discuss what high performance models were never sold here which is the big problem with USA Cultus models - they only gave us a MKI T3 and a MKII G13B (again, I'm not aware of a USA MKI G13B, someone please confirm this.)

So while I appreciate the other wold market engines, you've listed, that shouldn't be in my Poll (although people making a "G10B" DOHC 1.0 4-valve is quite interesting)

Again, you can see the confusion - it is difficult to talk about these cars due to the various markets. What is sad is that there doesn't seem to be a "Platform name" for the Cultus - like the MOPAR folks can refer to their "A-Body" cars. When someone says Cultus, right away someone chimes in saying they were never sold in the USA. So discussion breaks down due to semantics.

I use the word "Cultus" like MOPAR says "A-Body." I would gladly like something more unambiguous.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:28 pm 
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cultus was never a north american market model.

use the chassis designation sf413 to broadly cover cars from 89 thru 94 and all engine types.

to describe a gt engine you would use g13b dohc 16v. all the g13 blocks 89 thru 2000 had g13 cast into them. prior to 89 the twincam cars carry the engine designation of g13k. 8 valve engines were g13ba. the final rendition of the g13 carried the designation of g13bb and those were sohc 16v with mpfi and distributorless ignition.

you are freaking exhausting! :-P

i suspect that you are cardinal grammeter as that personna is equally exhausting. :-P

wikipedia is not a valid source of any good information, as a matter of fact it's as fucked up as hogan's goat from all the geniuses who have modified its pages. :twisted:

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