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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:14 am 
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I've installed the AFR-gauge and came to some nice conclusions.

First, if I disconnect the lambda from the ECU, the car runs MUCH nicer/smoother. It also has a lot more power/drivability. My AFR was at max (1volt) all the time (and yes, it does work :)). It even went at max scale with 4psi of boost. So, my car doesn't run lean at the full rpm range :).

But, I noticed that the ECU is trying to correct the mixture while you are at idle. Even if you disconnect the lambda from the ECU. This is logical and I will explain it. With a disconnected lambda, the ECU will measure a lambda voltage of 0volts. So it 'thinks' the engine is running lean, and increases the pulswith to the injectors. You can see that on the AFR, it makes a step increment on the scale. Still the ECU thinks it is lean (0volt) and again increases the pulswidth. And so on... You can see the AFR-gauge from say stoich to rich in digital steps... Nice to see, but it does conclude that the ECU does not have an error/fault checking on the lambda and that is still using the lambda (even if it is not connected) to correct the mixture.

My car is a 1995 GTi. Maybe it works different for older cars and/or in different countries. The disadvantage of this fuel correction while no lambda is connected, is that it is very hard to set a nice idle mixture with a piggyback computer. If you wait for 20 seconds and then correct the mixture with a piggyback, then it is ok. But just before that, the engine is running a little bit lean, because you corrected the mixture when the ECU is at full lambda correction (max pwm increase to the injectors).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:00 am 
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Dan GS DOHC wrote:
...And which fuel pump you will use (please say from which car manufacturer, make, model, year and engine if you know them because it is easier to find the same pump on a store)


People that have swapped their fuel pumps have used DSM and Mustang fuel pumps. Its seems that alot of different pumps will fit. This has been covered plenty before, so have a look at the older posts.

Dan GS DOHC wrote:
2. Some people put the MAF before the turbo, and some after the turbo. Which one of these two emplacements is the best and why ?


Ditto with this one: http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?p=46026

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:26 am 
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Lithan, I know some of these answer, I was only asking them to let the newbies who come there to see the answer by reading this topics and avoiding hours of search to know these answer, since this topic is supposed to be a kind of FAQ.

Daniel


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:11 pm 
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Thanks for teh congrats on the wedding... so few days away now. :)


Quote:
What can be made should probably be called air flow cut - when air flow signal exceeds predetermines value (lets say 5V) ecu will cut fuel. I don't know if swift uses it (I doubt), but then again - turbocharged Nissan engines (say CA18DET, SR20DET, RB2xDET(T) etc) use this feature as protection from overboosting.


no such thing on a Swift. All it may do is send a large pulse-width to the injectors. I max out the 5V signal at 4000-4500rpms, I'd probably notice a 'load' cut.


Quote:
When you turbocharge swift engine you basically need more fuel (thats obvious ). Easyest way to do it imho would be to add some bigger injectors. That would give to much fuel in (almost) all conditions... To compensate for it you could simply add a bigger MAF and then use simple and cheap two pot electrical scheme to correct the mixture further... (This idea is nothing new: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0008/article.html ).


like I say, true 3d fuel mapping makes your life so much easier. As it doesn't need -20% all the way accross with larger injectors and any changes are not going to be linear. You may not be making huge power over stock before 2500rpms or even 3500rpms depending on turbo, but after 4000-4500rpms you will be making a whole lot more than stock.

Quote:
[1. Is it required to change the fuel pump when you turbocharge the engine for a low-boost setup on a stock engine with stock injectors ? And which fuel pump you will use (please say from which car manufacturer, make, model, year and engine if you know them because it is easier to find the same pump on a store)


not for low boost. Beyond 150-160whp i'd seriously look at replacing it. I use early 90s turbo DSM (Talon/Eclipse) fuel pump which is exactly same dimensions and you can use the stock pick-up screen. Mustangs, and lots of otehrs as mentioned.


Quote:
2. Some people put the MAF before the turbo, and some after the turbo. Which one of these two emplacements is the best and why ?


I chose to emulate factory type set-up. Kevs is same but more in-line with the turbo.

Quote:
3. I heard that we could use a Hyundai Excell 1996 oxygen sensor and that he is a wideband sensor (3 wires: power, ground, readings). I whould like to know if the engine and ECU will work properly with this sensor installed.


For true wide-band, I consider 5 wire. 4 wire will still be better than what we have. No you can not use it with the factory ECU. You must use with appropiate gauge/device capable of intrepeting voltages properly.



Quote:
But, I noticed that the ECU is trying to correct the mixture while you are at idle. Even if you disconnect the lambda from the ECU. This is logical and I will explain it. With a disconnected lambda, the ECU will measure a lambda voltage of 0volts. So it 'thinks' the engine is running lean, and increases the pulswith to the injectors. You can see that on the AFR, it makes a step increment on the scale. Still the ECU thinks it is lean (0volt) and again increases the pulswidth


ECU actually has different maps for the idle. From watching live trace on teh ECU before the main 16x16 fuel/timing maps aren't even active at certain points.

The car may also run leaner at idle given that the MAF is likely not seeing the same kind of vacuum as factory given that you have a slowly spinning turbo there now. I know Kevs car was very lean at idle, and mine wasn't quite as bad. Corrections were simply made with piggy-back for that rpm/load point.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:47 am 
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whattheeee wrote:
like I say, true 3d fuel mapping makes your life so much easier.

Sure it does. But it isn't extremely cheap.
What I am basically saying... you can go up to something like 5-7 psi on stock computer. Then you have to do something. No question 3d mapping is best possible way. But you look, I'm retarded could go the cheap way: add some second hand injectors, bigger MAF and use two pots to set the correct fuel mixture at high revs/loads. At low loads/revs most certainly mixture will be to rich, but that should be taken care by O2 sensor...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:06 pm 
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For 5-7psi the problem is not in top end fuel delivery as you'll have enough fuel with stock injectors and low boost. The problem is the bottom end rpm. Add large injectors to richen up the bottom rpm a/f, and it now idles too rich, runs ok once boost is coming in, and loses 10whp because it's pig rich at the top. Your motor will thank you with a properly tuned a/f and it will make a lot more power.

I've done it the otehr way with 5th injectors, pressure switches, rpm switches, and it wastes a whole lot of time from doing it proper the first time. If you can't afford a couple hundred bucks for an air/fuel controller, you can't afford for anything to happen to your motor, and it's all the more reason to not touch a turbo kit until you can do it properly.

Not to mention spending twice as much time fiddling with different things that don't need to be touched in low boost (MAF/Injectors) to do a job 1/4 as good as adding a cheap controller that takes 5 wires to hook up.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:28 am 
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Couple hundred for A/F controller? More like 4-5 hundred...
When AFM is something like 20-40, and injectors say 10-15 a piece...

You said, 3d mapping is the far better. I agree. I don't argue that :) Leave it alone.

But you could also change AFM+injectors. That's nothing new. For example it's a common mod on MkIII supras. They use 550cc injectors and Lexus AFM ( http://www.supras.co.uk/resources/MkIII ... pgrade.htm ).

Quote:
you can't afford for anything to happen to your motor, and it's all the more reason to not touch a turbo kit until you can do it properly.

I don't even plan doing it :D. At least in foreseeable future. And if I do, I'll probably use e-manage. I just wanted to mention, that there is a way to do it cheaply.
Btw. my 200SX (european model - it's basically us market 240SX only powered by turbocharged CA18DET engine) uses stock reprogramed computer. Thats the best way to do it. But as much as I know there is neither freeware for swift chiptuning nor a turbochip for a swift...

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Last edited by spade on Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:56 am 
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Ehh Spade... Here in europe reprogramming ecu is much cheaper than in us/aus. Commonly we use it, and if not just piggyback. Also dynos are much more better here...
Unfortunatelly my swift is not a programmable one :( Just time to setup standalone....

BTW Spade do You know Vimota Tuning??

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:13 pm 
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spade wrote:
Couple hundred for A/F controller? More like 4-5 hundred...
When AFM is something like 20-40, and injectors say 10-15 a piece...

Problem is, your not listening... :wink: I said, 3d mapping is the far better. I agree. I don't argue that :) Leave it alone.

But you could also change AFM+injectors. That's nothing new. For example it's a common mod on MkIII supras. They use 550cc injectors and Lexus AFM ( http://www.supras.co.uk/resources/MkIII ... pgrade.htm ).

Quote:
you can't afford for anything to happen to your motor, and it's all the more reason to not touch a turbo kit until you can do it properly.

I don't even plan doing it :D. At least in foreseeable future. And if I do, I'll probably use e-manage. I just wanted to mention, that there is a way to do it cheaply.
Btw. my 200SX (european model - it's basically us market 240SX only powered by turbocharged CA18DET engine) uses stock reprogramed computer. Thats the best way to do it. But as much as I know there is neither freeware for swift chiptuning nor a turbochip for a swift...


I worked out of the shop and did many hundreds of dyno runs along side the inventor of the Supra MAF mod for the MKIII Supra. Reg Reimer is a good buddy and a great tuner. That mod is not cheap for Supra owners, the Lexus AFM should be bought new, and 550 injectors required are not cheap. In order to get the "driveability" the car deserves, I'd look at software in addition to that.

http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonic/sonic.htm
http://www.monsterhorsepower.com


You're not listening to good advice. Advice given because I've tried it, and done it the hard way. Trust me, it's a pain in the ass, you can tune the fuel curve for the motor to survive a short time super rich, but you can't make near the same power, you can't tune for driveability, and the end result is a half-ass job. Plus, your motor will live longer if you can tune all areas not just some 'tune idle' and leave the top rich.

http://www.splitsec.com has a controller for $210 US. There should also be no shortage of earlier digital versions of SAFC on http://www.ebay for those who can't afford true 3d over simulated 3d. Like I say injectors cost good money, and peoples time and motors are worth that couple hundred bucks.

It's not that I'm closed to new ideas, I'm just saying that this is not a new idea, and that it's been done and the conclusion for a Swift is that it is a pain in the ass.

We did a lot of live 3d ECU tracing and programming on various cars at the shop and if you like to have a car that's just like factory, it's the perfect way to go with a confident tuner. It sucks if you're like me, changing mods every other week because you have to crack open the ECU, do your mods on the dyno, and burn another chip. The absolute best way to go would be with aftermarket engine management system and there are only a couple of pricey ones that get close to equivalent and even superior to factory ECUs.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:12 am 
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Whattheeee says good thinks - give hem vodka :)

Spade when new dyno comes next week You should ask Piro about Red Bx Lite - should be good device. It can even take control over injectors and work as standalone :) Just 6 channels in lite version, butnext one will have much more :D It should be cheaper than SMT6 and other stuff:)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:07 am 
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2 whattheeeee...
Actually we are talking about the same thing... Just, as you say it yourself - to do it right is expensive. But that will not stop people who have not enough money from doing it...

2 Colin: will do it if (when) I need it :)

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Last edited by spade on Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:09 am 
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And btw
whattheeee wrote:
http://www.splitsec.com has a controller for $210 US.

If you look closer at this thing you will see, that this basically is an overpriced two-pot-mod:
http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm :D

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:38 am 
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spade wrote:
And btw
whattheeee wrote:
http://www.splitsec.com has a controller for $210 US.

If you look closer at this thing you will see, that this basically is an overpriced two-pot-mod:
http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm :D



Wooow just shit :P
I'd rather go for smt5 for that price...
Custom chip would be 300, maybe 350$....

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:55 am 
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Few thoughts about turbo sizing...
(There is nothing new for people who have a little (more) knowledge about turbos, but for someone who is doing it for the first time this small piece of info might be usefull as a food for thought.)

Lets start from far away.
As I mentioned earlier, my car has a turbocharged 1,8 liter engine. Stock turbo is T25 (comp.: 45 trim T3 wheel; .48A/R T25 diffuser). Stock Hp is 169PS (in Europe; in Japan its 175). Stock boost is 8-10 psi.
This engine with stock turbo, but with bigger i/c, free flow filter, free flow exhaust, fuel pump, 15 psi of boost and remapped stock ECU should produce around 230 hp (maybe little less).
What all this has to do with turbo sizing?
If you leave the same mods (i.e. the same boost too), but change the turbo to a T28 (comp.: 60 trim T3 wheel; .60A/R T04B diffuser), and remap the chip you should have something like 270 hp (maybe little more).
Different turbo, same mods, same boost - ~40hp difference.

What I am trying to say?
Get the biggest turbo you can find and slap it on! 8) .

No, not necesarilly :). But if you are planing to boost you swift up to (lets say) 200 hp, and have a choice between two turbos: one from a car with say 170hp, and another from a car with 200 hp you should probably go with the bigger turbo.
Both turbos will do. Just the bigger one will do it at the lower boost and better efficiency... Yes, the boost threshold will be higher too. But it will have better "possibilitys of growt"... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:06 am 
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No - turbo sizing depends on what You want from car :)

If interrested in quick spool up and track/rally use it's better to go with smaller turbo, or install anti lag system. If for dragracing, street use or high speed driving You can go with big one, because You will barelly use low/mid rpm range and won't shift very often.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:42 am 
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Colin The Barbarian wrote:
No - turbo sizing depends on what You want from car :)
If interrested in quick spool up and track/rally use it's better to go with smaller turbo, or install anti lag system. If for dragracing, street use or high speed driving You can go with big one, because You will barelly use low/mid rpm range and won't shift very often.

Sure.
Only, to be honest, I think most people will use turboed swift mainly as a street car...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:12 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
spade wrote:
And btw
whattheeee wrote:
http://www.splitsec.com has a controller for $210 US.

If you look closer at this thing you will see, that this basically is an overpriced two-pot-mod:
http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm :D


Hmmm, I've used this and it works as well as the link. The knobs are there for base changes and it looks hokey, but the real benefit is the progammability which allows you to set up your basic 3d fuel map. I can pre-program the unit with the mods needed for a Swift turbo, send it off to someone and they can make little changes as they go. The knobs are just there for quick changes on the fly.

Quote:
2 whattheeeee... here we go again (you really aren't listening)
Actually we are talking about the same thing... Just, as you say it yourself - to do it right is expensive. But that will not stop people who have not enough money from doing it...

2 Colin: will do it if (when) I need it


There is no substitute for experience. Your opinions are based on conjecture and heresay and possibly what your buddy on another forum told you. Turbo your Swift, have it last for a year on 11psi on stock compression, and get back to me. There really is no point doing something unless you can do it mostly right. A simple rheostat/MAF mod on a turbo Swift is not even remotely right. There are no long term/short term internal timing/fuel maps adjustment in a Swift ECU like there is on a lot of cars that come with factory turbos (DSM/Toyotas/Nissan etc. etc. etc.). The map is what it is, unless you make a change at that one point. I don't think you've done enough mods or tuning to know that yet.

For turbo sizing, talk to Jardamuth... Spades advice is already out-dated...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:05 pm 
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Spade, don't waste my time, your time, or anybody's time by making it personal. This post is too long to start having posts that add nothing. Normally it's a temp ban for personal attacks. Just a note, I respond to people how they respond to me. Start talking trash, and I'll do it back. It's a viscous cycle really. Either put up some facts, or get your posts deleted when the nonsense ensues.

Spade did correctly point out that it's not the $210 one I was thinking of, but one of the ones in the PSC1 line. That would namely be the $235 -003 which alters voltage and such I believe. Last time I played with these was on a SC Prowler using timing and an injector controller... worked very well once tuned properly.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:51 pm 
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Location: Curacao
What's up Trini Swift..

I have 6 BTM installed on my MK1 ...But I have installed it on older swifts also
In fact it is very simpel ....the best you can do is using a MSD blaster coil
1) Orange/Black wire goes to the coil
2)Red/White goes to those 2 OEM -/+ wires which used to go to the OEM coil (brown one is -)
3) Heavy red is battery +
4) Heavy black is battery-

You need to use a Tach Adapter #8910..which you pick the tin red/white and put them together with the Tach adapter wires ..and the car must start..


Hope I helped you out enough!!!

Regards ,

Lulyrast....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:50 am 
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Nice info around here.

Can anyone correct the bb codes to make those info looks good ? :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:45 am 
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whattheeee wrote:
I've been intending to set up a FAQ for turbo setup, from turbo/piping/intercooler sizing to how much power, and what is good. However, there are books on the complete set-up so tackling it in one message has had me keep putting it off. <br><br>Sooo, rather than putting it off, I propose a new method. If you feel you have a new question about FI set-up, ask it in here. We can answer it a bit at a time, and delete the crap messages to keep the good info in the sticky topic.<br><br>This thread will be for nitrous/supercharger ideas as well.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub83.ezboard.com/bteamswift.showUserPublicProfile?gid=whattheeee>Whattheeee</A> at: 5/6/03 11:14:10 pm<br></i>



hellooo,

i've been thinking and i really would like to turbo my swift... But i'm not a mechanical. I have and ideia... There's a faq? or a diagram? A diagram it would really help..

Can you help me plz?

And where can i get the parts? and how to choose the right ones...

sorry for all of this questions

thx


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