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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:05 am 
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If it is safe to run a base timing of 2 degrees with standard compression, What base timing would be safe without too much off boost lag, with 8.5:1 compression?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:51 am 
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What went through the engine again to cause that? Some nice chunks of metal flaoting around those cylinders. I think the Swift head has too much material in those spots anyway, ;) time for some combustion chamber re-shaping and no choice but to unshroud those valves. :D

At least check the valves for damage as they are pricey as it is and they looked they were in good shape.

For timing considerations with lower compression... play around for your set-up. You should definetely be able to advance it some all the way accross.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:23 pm 
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this is a sick thread! the info here is awsome! as some of you know, my goal to build the Ultimate Street Swift is starting to take shape. My cultus motor will be here tomorrow 8) (I will take pictures and post asap) which means that my n/a swift motor will be out and prime for a rebuild. I've been doing my homework and reading alot of posts. I just love seeing kyle's dyno charts..but I need another 50-75 whp to be competitive in the Ultimate street(blah blah). Jess I think is recomending the 1.6 pistons? I have also read that Kyle does not suggest porting the intake valves. Why not? I obviously will have access to a cultus intake...is this a huge benefit? I'm trying to get Rospen in AU. to email me back on one of thier quad tb intakes. Of course I will document all of this on dvd and produce some type of program (like american hot rod) for the benefit of all on this forum. back to topic... gapless rings? crank scrapers? ohyeah, I have to pass emmissions here in CO USA :thwack: Is this all possible? I think so, but I will need alot of help. Sure this would be easier if this were a h@#da but then where would the fun be in that? Jess, I will be emailing you soon...I did get your pm, thanks in advance to everyone who will be helping me in the future. Not trying to hijack post... :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:46 am 
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The reason I ask what went through the motor is because those pics look more like something was left in the intercooler pipes than a head gasket failure... definetely nasty. I've never seen parts of the pistons just blow off. Unless of course you used some crappy plug that exploded in nearly all the cylinders.

The intake side of the head is very well done as it is, you can port it, but there won't be huge gains from it. That is, unless you totally re-work it from the valves back. I would still personally like to see someone dump a butt-load of cash to these guys http://www.theoldone.com so if you are going for the ultimate, I say DO IT! :D Asymetric 55 degree seats with Larrys supersonic exhaust port sections to match the seats. It'll cost a pretty penny, but I can only see fantastic things for someone who dumps a load of cash in a head there. He gives reasons for his ideas that you can read on his web-site, ideas that should minimize temps in the head and prolong engine life while still outflowing most everyone. Honestly... I am truly dying to see a Swift owner send their bits to Endyn, so I say go that route. If I had the cash to spend, I would have done it, seeing as I dont... I'm trying to live vicariously through someone else. It could be you. :D :D If you want power and emissions, that's one shop where the motor work would help make it nearly entirely possible.

The head work and making the motor as efficient as possible will be the key to survival. Endyn can help you decide what to do with your intake manifold as well. If you go with them, the intake and exhaust manifolds will all be relevant.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:17 am 
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whattheeee wrote:
The reason I ask what went through the motor is because those pics look more like something was left in the intercooler pipes than a head gasket failure... definetely nasty. I've never seen parts of the pistons just blow off. Unless of course you used some crappy plug that exploded in nearly all the cylinders.


AFAIK nothing went through the head. The piston is just melted :( A part of the melted piston 'sits' at the top of the cylinder. It just all got very hot. Because we didn't have an AFR-gauge, we don't know how lean the engine ran. We 'just' made a mistake not to install an AFR-gauge (it was not on stock). We learned the hard way. The reason why my engine didn't melt, was because I run very rich and retard the ignition to much. Lucky me. In the near future, we will dyno the cars with a piggy-back computer (SMT6 of Unichip; probably unichip). We keep you posted.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:56 am 
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This is definitely a result from running lean and detonating. I've seen similiar pitting in heads and pistons of 30psi boosted motors, although they weren't nearly as bad as this.
A friend of mine melted a part off his piston, a combination of running lean and a bad ring seal.
http://www.foo.is/gallery/turbos?page=2


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:08 am 
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baldurg wrote:
This is definitely a result from running lean and detonating. I've seen similiar pitting in heads and pistons of 30psi boosted motors, although they weren't nearly as bad as this.
A friend of mine melted a part off his piston, a combination of running lean and a bad ring seal.
http://www.foo.is/gallery/turbos?page=2


Well, we are a bit scared now, because rubberburner has also blown his engine (but we don't know what happened). We just want to make sure that this will not happen again. So again, is it possible and RELIABLE to have 8.5psi of boost with 10:1 compression and use RON98 with 4 degrees of ignition retard? Ok, a blown headgasket is possible, but will the engine knock with this setup IF we provide enough fuel (AFR of 12/12.5:1)? We will dyno the car and use a piggyback. The AFR will not go higher then 12.5:1 when boosting.

We are in doubt if we want to use 1.6 of the G13BB (new 1.3 swift/baleno) pistons. It will cost us about 400-650 euro's more! if we want to do this, so if it is not nessesary.... Please advice (again, sorry... :()


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:35 am 
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The mad quebecer
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Quote:
with 10:1 compression and use RON98 with 4 degrees of ignition retard?


This is the problem! You run too much advance. I'm on the edge with 3 deg timing and yet I have a low compression motor with ported head. As whatteeee say, you should not run more than 2 deg on a stock motor.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:43 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
Quote:
with 10:1 compression and use RON98 with 4 degrees of ignition retard?


This is the problem! You run too much advance. I'm on the edge with 3 deg timing and yet I have a low compression motor with ported head. As whatteeee say, you should not run more than 2 deg on a stock motor.


Sorry, I explained it wrong... We have the ignition retarded 4 degrees, so it should be around (6-4) 2 degrees. Maybe less, because we rotated the distributor about 6 a 8mm (about 0.3 inch). But when we dyno the car, it will have a maximum of 2 degrees base timing when boost comes up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:42 am 
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This is really a great post, ok let me share some of my experience with my turbo setup

I'm running
1.6 vitara pistons
MHI TDO4L-13G turbo
Microtech LT-8 Stand alone computer
Toyota 4AGZE 360cc injectors
Aquamist Water Injection system 1s
Oil catch can
larger suzuki fuel pump [not sure what type]
ported area around the exhaust valves [opened the throat]

My timing at idle is set to 10 degrees advance
I'm running 14 psi boost
i dyno'd at 157whp 140 ft..lbs torque but this was with a boost cut cutting fuel at 12@ hence the reading.

I do not have an o-ringed block
I'm still running my stock fuel rail and stock fuel pressure regulators
My spark plug gap is set to 0.5
so far so good ....

My timing advances up to 30 at 8000 RPM

if you want specific tuning data let me know i've been tryig to get information on tuning standalones for these car so anyone with info let me know.


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 Post subject: And an FMU?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:31 am 
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Much has been said but none talked about an FMU...

Does it work? Anyone uses one? It will do the job for a low bost setup like 6/8psi?

This seems a good product and i´ve seen a couple of sites with hondas using them...for those that don´t know what it is, it is a Fuel Pressure Regulator that raises fuel pressure per psi of boost...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:15 pm 
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actually it's been covered a number of times .. increasing the fuel pressure doesn't really increase the flow a whole lot & can make tuning a b!tch ..
try searching under rising rate fuel regulators instead of fmu

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:49 pm 
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The mad quebecer
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See answer there:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=3901

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 Post subject: Well........
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:42 pm 
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Well.......i still have my doubts....it still could work on a low boost setup...

As been proved in some honda turbo conversions...

Thing is; in a simplistic way; when you turbocharge an engine, your putting in more air, but the fuel still remains the same, and you need an ideal or near to 14:1 air/fuel mixture. That means 14 parts of air to 1 part of fuel...When on boost it´s like 18, 19 etc... parts of air to 1 part of fuel...meaning a lean mixture...meaning detonation...

But on a low boost setup your only putting a bit more air, and using a FMU or maybe only a fpr your adding just the little bit more fuel needed...This should be tested of course, you need to know cfm´s and etc...this is simply thinking outloud...

It´s like when your putting 6psi in and the FMU then uprates the pressure to say 2.8/3bar the injectors are forced to inject more fuel at the same pulse width due to the pressure...this bit of extra fuel maybe it´s only the little quantity needed...

This could be simply checked with an Air / fuel ratio meter and an EGT...

I really liked to belive...because the other alternatives are expensive and complicated...But the piggy-back still the best tough...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:35 am 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
ok, that's not detonation that caused the scoring on the head. That's the aftermath of detonation or something going through the head. The main damage is where the piston comes up to meet with the flat part of the head. Every time it comes up with something on top of the piston, it makes an impact exactly like those pics. I've seen that kind of damage on cylinders running at idle-no load mid rpms from washers or something going through the motor. That kind of damage doesn't result coincidentally where the piston meets the head.

Rising rate fuel pressure regulators are bad news as Jar linked to old post of mine. As we've already gone through part of the problem with driveability is the MAF signal and the fact that you need 5% here, -5% here, 6% a little further, then 10% back down to 5% or whatever. You simply can not tune around multiple rpm points with a rising rate regulator. Honda guys are known for blowing motors and making mistakes in my opinion. Some may be just fine with too much fuel all the way accross, but really... a simple piggy back and 1:1 adjustable FPR allows you to tune where you want.

14:1 is a bad number for WOT. On a Swift, Run rich under WOT... like 11.5-12:1. Some factory turbo cars run 10:1 or richer as for certain motors it adds a measuere of safety.

My car ran rich, and Kev who drives harder than I do all the time, runs richer (too rich mind you). It is safe to run 8.5psi on stock compression if properly tuned and assuming your fuel isn't super oxygenated. I run 91 octane for most of the cars life over here. Get your cars to a dyno facility with wide-band when you have ability to adjust fuel somehow and don't stop tuning until the detonation is gone. Listen carefully in the mid-rpms as that is where it is most likely to occur with stock compression and such. If the car is tuned for the octane, at various rpms and simulated situations that you would encounter on the street, the motor will survive just fine.

Sometimes some things just happen that you can't prevent, but you really should be able to work those out to a minimum.

Getting married in less than 2 weeks guys, so unfortunately I don't have enough time here. Just post a Q and I'll see what I can do.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:49 am 
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whatheee,

congratulations on your upcoming wedding.

some of the undisclosed damage from detonation occurs in the small end of the connecting rods, gudgeon pin, piston skirts and to a lesser degree in the big ends of the rods.

the worst damage occurs when the timing is set too close to TDC which causes pinging before the crank rotates the knee of the connecting rod past the vertical point which applies forces in the opposite direction of crank rotation - if only for an instant, which jolts the rod.

i've found that the grievous "hole in the piston" syndrome that denotes the super lean/ bad timing condition is most noticeable (and one that deserves a rightful ration of self depracation! hehe) but an engine that is only slightly off on the air/ fuel mix and timimg will sustain more minor damage that accumulates over time until you break a gudgeon (sorry, wrist pin in the king's english) or develop so much piston slap that you start to think that the crowd is applauding your valiant effort in the race :roll:

all the top end woes are more apparent in motorcycle engines and 2 stroke engines which generally have petite, caged roller bearings at the gudgeon pin/ small rod end, but since i am generally the end user of beat-to-hell pickup trucks, i've also had 4, 6, and 8 cylinder auto engines mash a piston into jagged shards and mash the bits into the head. it ain't pretty!

personally, i'm a proponent of knock sensors and the sensibility of lifting my foot off the gas pedal. :lol: :lol:

best regards, richard

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 Post subject: Yep...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:37 pm 
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Yep...i´m convinced..allways learning with the best...i tought that the fuel was needed as boost raised at same ratios...

This topic should be in the FAQ section...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:02 pm 
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This is a good time to say thanks...
Thanks for the learning...
Thanks for the knowledge transmitted...
Thanks for all...

I´m not the kind of guy to talk about something i don`t understand...
But i came to this site everyday... and every single day i learn a little bit more with you...
Some times i wrote something but generally i just read...

Thanks!!! I really mean that... you guys are the best!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: no
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:31 am 
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Oscar B wrote:
No, the ecu will no cut becouse ssgti carries a hot wire maf, not a MAP.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Note: It is a question about the programming of the ecu, and not about what it uses - MAP or MAF (whatever: door type or hotwire). In the system with with MAF boost cut obviously can not be incorporated as it doesn't measures the boost (pressure) in itself. What can be made should probably be called air flow cut - when air flow signal exceeds predetermines value (lets say 5V) ecu will cut fuel. I don't know if swift uses it (I doubt), but then again - turbocharged Nissan engines (say CA18DET, SR20DET, RB2xDET(T) etc) use this feature as protection from overboosting.

Hope that was helpfull.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:33 am 
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I have a question - what is the size of stock MAF?
Size - I mean the size of the hole :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:50 am 
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The idea behind my question about MAF size is...

When you turbocharge swift engine you basically need more fuel (thats obvious :) ). Easyest way to do it imho would be to add some bigger injectors. That would give to much fuel in (almost) all conditions... To compensate for it you could simply add a bigger MAF and then use simple and cheap two pot electrical scheme to correct the mixture further... (This idea is nothing new: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0008/article.html ).

Two pots may seem very coarse... well they are... you can't compare them to a proper piggyback. But then again - this solution is cheap and imho should work just fine (correct me if I'm wrong). As I understand it Split Second air/fuel calibrator ARC1 uses the same two pot scheme (look http://www.splitsec.com/products/arc1/arc1ds.htm ).

Comments?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:50 pm 
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spade wrote:
I have a question - what is the size of stock MAF?
Size - I mean the size of the hole :)

this has been covered a number of times, but the stock maf is 45mm & can be bored out to 48.5mm~49mm

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:33 pm 
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Location: Granby, Quebec, Canada
Hi,

I have some questions for you :

1. Is it required to change the fuel pump when you turbocharge the engine for a low-boost setup on a stock engine with stock injectors ? And which fuel pump you will use (please say from which car manufacturer, make, model, year and engine if you know them because it is easier to find the same pump on a store)

2. Some people put the MAF before the turbo, and some after the turbo. Which one of these two emplacements is the best and why ?

3. I heard that we could use a Hyundai Excell 1996 oxygen sensor and that he is a wideband sensor (3 wires: power, ground, readings). I whould like to know if the engine and ECU will work properly with this sensor installed.


Daniel


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