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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 pm
Posts: 20
94 Geo Metro California 240687 Miles. 5 speed. At 201000 head work done (#1 and #3 exhaust valve burnt). Had code 51..Egr did not work. Cleaned Egr. Cleaned large tube to modulater. Put Egr back on. Egr worked but had code 51. After reviewing your site found info on cleaning intake egr passage. Found it clogged.. Cleaned.. Code 51 is cleared...

Tune up last week Air filter, oil/filter change. plugs, wires, rotor, cap.. timing set 5deg BTDC.

Have had rough/low idle problem after warm up to normal temp for quite some time. Supposed to be 800 but after warm up it drops down to about 400-500 and idles roughly. All accessories are off. Looking at possible ISC or TPS problem.. TPS has four wire connector but only three wires, second one from left is factory rubber plugged. Test per Haynes manual test 1 and 2 closed or idle position readings are within tolerance. Test 3 wide open position does not read at all. Supposed to be between 3.17 - 6.6Kohm.

Other than this it runs fine and throttle response is quick and good. No hesitation or stumble on accel or cruising.

Any Ideas?????.

I have looked at over 60 pages today on this forum and have been unable to find exactly what might help me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Chilliwack, B.C.
Terminal 82 at ECM is idle switch signal from ISC. This terminal should be 5 volts off idle and 0 volts with throttle closed with key on engine off. If ground signal isn't present with during idle with with throttle closed, ECM will not control idle speed properly. If you move the TPS back and forth, the ISC stepper motor should move in and out. If you set the TPS to about 0.7 volts, it will supply a ground to the ECM on terminal 82. Once this ground is present, the ISC will step itself out to mainteain proper idle speed. Just a thought; it seems like you've done your checks. :D

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:37 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Memphis, TN
I've got the same problem. I'm pulling a code for the IAT. Saying that it is too cold. I haven't looked at it but if I find something I'll post it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:56 pm
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Location: Chilliwack, B.C.
The MAT and MAP sensors also input to the ECM, and have been known to mess the idle quality up.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 pm
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Thanks guys. Still tinkering with it. Looks like the ISC motor functions alright. See the movement of the rod when fan comes on or turn on headlights. However the idle does not pick up above where it was at low/rough. But it does not bog further down. Starting to stump me. Moved the TSP, did not make a whole lot of change. I can tell it appears to function. Took a couple of times to readjust to get it back to where it was.. Gonna do some checks on the pins. My book shows checks on pins a, b,c,d, but does not show what order they are in from left to right or right to left looking at it. Will see if maybe the letters are in the plastic. Getting old and eyesight is not what it used to be. LOL


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:36 pm
Posts: 409
Location: SC
I agree on the eyesight!!Try one more test,possibly the EGR valve has
a bit of carbon on its seat,causing some bleed-by(new word?) at idle,
I was helping a friend with his 94 and had this problem and found the
EGR leaking.Pulled it off and blew thru it,sure enough it was leaking,
pushed the pintle valve off its seat,hosed it down with penetrating oil,
banged it real hard on the bench vice 20 times and no more leak,now
with proper timing,TPS adjustment and tight EGR,it idles well!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 pm
Posts: 20
I'll give that try. Did not think about that when I cleaned the egr/hoses/passageways. The smog stations will not even try to smog.. They said "Misfire condition" based on the rough idle prevents them from continuing with check. But beyond idle there is no loping or hesitation. ZING!! .. Ok thanks again will check...


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Ottawa,Ontario
elgeeps wrote:
94 Geo Metro California 240687 Miles. 5 speed. At 201000 head work done (#1 and #3 exhaust valve burnt). Had code 51..Egr did not work. Cleaned Egr. Cleaned large tube to modulater. Put Egr back on. Egr worked but had code 51. After reviewing your site found info on cleaning intake egr passage. Found it clogged.. Cleaned.. Code 51 is cleared...


Ok, I also have the "Code 51" ... you said you found a way to clean it, I have been looking around the site but I am at a loss for words... I searched through a ton of pages and even looked at the service manual pictures... no info on cleaning out a clog.

Im a visual learner... anyone have pictures of what this looks like so I can clean it out? (cleaning recomendations/tools etc?)... i've had the idiot light on for over a year now. :cry:

Many thanks for your help :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 pm
Posts: 20
Not sure what year you have.. but two bolts hold egr on.. two hoses...one large goes up to modulator... small is vacuum supply from vacuum solenoid valve to back top of egr.. remove the hoses .. make sure the large one going to the modulator is clean/clear. Remove two bolts holding EGR on Intake Manifold. You will notice two holes in manifold that is the operating ports for the EGR... one toward the front of car is going through the head and into the exhaust manifold....that one on mine was clear, (Recent head work)... the other one (the hole on the right) goes back along the intake manifold and goes to the back of the intake manifold. I lifted the throttle body out of the way and then went in to the EGR port on the right with a couple of pieces of copper wire and some carb cleaner , kept spraying and working wires, pulling black muck out...i did have air compressor on and put some air to the port with rag stuffed in the intake below the throttle body...finally blew the stuff out into the rag. Put everything back together and reset the code and it did not come back on ... Ran it for a week, and UH-OH... light is back on .. not sure why now.. This is becoming a never ending problem.. Egr seems to work alright... does what it is supposed to do.. Maybe some of the gunk that was still in there ganged up and clogged up again.. I am at a loss.. I guess I'll go back in again and see what I can find.... Gonna check out the Map sensor...also..


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:52 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Springville, UT
Seafoam is at least something to try. It helped smooth out my idle when it was rough.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Ottawa,Ontario
elgeeps wrote:
...Egr seems to work alright... does what it is supposed to do.. Maybe some of the gunk that was still in there ganged up and clogged up again.. I am at a loss.. I guess I'll go back in again and see what I can find.... Gonna check out the Map sensor...also..


Thanks elgeeps! Yeah, I have the same make/year as yours :D
Im going to dive into this next weekend when I actually have time to work on it. (and replace timing belt, drive belt, timing cover, etc)... hehehe, I love to-do lists :roll:

Anywho, let me know what you find when you check out the MAP sensor etc. I think we're having the same exact problem.

My dad had the same issue with his '94 Geo Metro and was able to fix it... but unfortunately he is now behind bars and I don't have a way of having him look at it. :(

Anywho, I am sure this topic should be a 'sticky' when we figure it out so other Geo-metro owners will know how to sort it out. :) (It seems to be a reoccurring issue)

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 pm
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Seafoam is new to me.. Is that an Oil additive?... What is it supposed to do for you?


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:52 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Springville, UT
You get it at checker or autozone, that kind of place. remove the brake booster vacuum hose and stuff that into the can of seafoam until it drinks about half the can. You can put it in a cup if you want to be able to see it, too. You need to keep the engine stumbling while sucking the seafoam in, and then when it has sucked half a can's worth in, submerge the end of the hose in it completely so that the engine stalls. Wait 5 minutes for it to work on the carbon, start it back up and don't let off the gas till the smoke is gone. (That means drive it full throttle :twisted:)

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:36 pm
Posts: 409
Location: SC
If ya look in the Mk2-3 section,topic is EGR Valve Pontiac Firefly,it'll
give you ALL the details on this subject.This smart young man came
up with the idea of using steel aircraft cable and a power drill running
backwards to clean out that snakey intake EGR port.I've used that
trick recently and worked real well,and no I did not remove the TBI,
just rooted it out and let the engine recycle it,some may smirk at
this,if so,by all means pull that TBI and drop a shop vac hose in there..
GOOD LUCK!!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:33 pm
Posts: 1
Location: surrey
!!!!!!!! DO NOT USE SEAFOAM !!!!!!!!!!

its a waste of money, and unnecessary!! and doesnt really work all that great.. and if you've used it even in a lawnmower, and took the plug out after... you would notice the plug has a weird film left on it after..and still had carbon on the piston...the smoke you see is the chemicals in the seafoam burning out of your engine...not carbon.. and they rather sell you some of their chemicals for $10 then tell you this...but

the best thing to use is....WATER!

sounds crazy...i know
but its true!!

get the car nice and warm.. take it for a drive

then all you do is put the water in a spray bottle and have someone keep the revs at 3-4000rpm as you mist the water into the intake.. but make sure not to stall the engine...keep spraying for about 5minutes...as the water mist enters the engine and it creates super heated steam that cleans all the carbon out of your engine and then the water just evaporates and you are left with NO SMOKE..NO RESIDUE...NO CHEMICALS, and best of all NO CARBON!! :)

(feel free to look up this subject for more information)


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