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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:43 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
This 1.0 was bored .020 over and has a $85 set of Total Seal gapless second ring, piston rings in it. Ring gaps were checked during the rebuild and are within spec. Ring gaps were staggered per Total Seal's instructions. This engine has about 3,000 miles on it and is burning a quart of oil every 500 miles. With the engine warmed up it idles baldy, like it's got one or more cylinders that aren't producing and smokes out the tailpipe. It really fogs when you rev it up. It runs fine at upper RPMs. I performed a leak down test today with a .040 orifice in the leak down tester. At 90 PSI the most I saw in leak down was about .25 PSI. On pulling the spark plugs the tops of the pistons are wet with oil, especially #3. The 1 & 2 plugs are fairly clean, but number 3 is seeing a lot of oil. The head has a fresh valve job with new exhaust guides and seals. I saw no problems with this head previously as it was factory and the motor had 125,000 miles on it when I tore it down. I enlarged the oil return hole in the head gasket as directed in these forums. Because of what Total Seal directs as far as restricting the PCV valve inlet, I went a step further and completely plugged the 3-way PCV hose at the valve cover so that the PCV valve was connected directly to the air cleaner. I then hose clamped a rag over the nipple on the valve cover. This made no difference in the oil burning and I saw no oil on the rag in the 500 miles I ran it this way. If it makes a difference, this is now a 1992 short block with a 1995 head on it. Can anyone help me on why I am burning so much oil? Engine is running 10w30 Castrol and is on it's second oil change.

Thanks...Texas Bird


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:06 pm 
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The later head is fine on the early block.
What is the compression?

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:04 am 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Your PCV modification might be causing your problem...
Could we see a photo?
Also like to know how those rings work out in the long run.

Good Luck.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:03 am 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
Thanks for the replys.

The PCV system is back to normal configuration.

I have not done a compression test. I figured the leakdown test would suffice, but I'll do a compression test and post the results.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:18 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
I did a compression check this evening. As follows in PSI:
1 Dry 130 Wet 147
2 Dry 120 Wet 151
3 Dry 130 Wet 144

Seems like I've seen posts of 180? for this motor in other notes. It still blows my mind on where all the oil is coming from. If you read the plugs, #3 has the worst oil problem.


Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:47 pm 
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Was that with the throttle wide open?

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:13 am 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
No...I'll do it again. It never entered my mind. Till this one, I haven't done a compression test in probably 20 years. It's like raising kids, aint it?

New results soon.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:41 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
Round 2

1 Dry--172 Wet--210
2 Dry--185 Wet--215
3 Dry--175 Wet--220

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Hmm.
Good numbers.
I wonder if they won't seat for some reason?
Let me think about it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:59 am 
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Location: Chester County PA
Are you sure you measured the bore correctly? as in all 3 measurements with the proper tools?

You only have to be off a hair for it to fail.


Jimmy


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 Post subject: oil burning
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Location: Greer,South Carolina USA
I have had that same type of problem on a car in the past. The rings would not seat What I did was cover the radiator partly with card board to raise the temp a little higher than normal .Just watch that temp do not let it go over 3/4 of the way . once you get it where it will run warmer with out running hot then drive it for 80 or 100 miles. It helped my car the rings seated and never gave me any trouble again. Good luck

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 2:32 pm 
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Location: Chester County PA
A bell just went off......



What type of oil did you use to break the motor in with?


Regular dinosaur oil is the best. NEVER use synthetic, as it won't the the rings seat.



Jimmy


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:47 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
Thanks for the replys.

I checked the piston to wall clearance that the machine shop did and it was within spec.

Good thought on the synthetic question. This motor has only seen 10w30 Castrol GTX.

That increasing motor temperature is interesting. I will try that before I quit on this set of rings.

For now, I'll be patient and see if anything comes to mind for Superf1y. I have not contacted Total Seal on this yet, but will do so.

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Location: Dallas
I remember all the honda guys complaining of this same type of thing with total seal rings.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Location: ID
It's most likely ring seal. Time for another teardown.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
Again, appreciate hearing from the members.

I had read the same messages of disatisfaction with the gapless rings. It was both ways though. Some of them said they were the cat's meow and the others said they belonged in the cat's box. The promised increase in efficiency was just too much for me. Being "The Man" I just knew they'd work for me with proper installation and a proper hone job from the machine shop. By the way, I will check for proper ring installation again if I have to go back into it. I've read several pieces on problems with these rings stating that pieces were improperly installed on tear down.

I haven't heard back from Total Seal yet, so I'll be patient and keep the group informed on the outcomes.

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:49 am
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Location: Crosby, Texas
I talked to Total Seal on the phone today. We went through pretty much everything that's been said here. He's mirroring what's been said here by the leakdown and compression tests. The rings are sealing. He's suspect that oil is entering the chambers under vacuum either through the intake or the head. The PCV was eliminated as the source. I don't think you could suck a quart in 500 miles past the valve guides with no seals and wore out guides. But the guides are in spec and the valves seals are new. I final assembled the head myself. I'll give it another going over, but I'm still at a loss.

The engine smokes lightly on a continuous basis up until it gets about a quart low on oil and then it smokes a lot less. It sounds like the engine is over filled with oil, but it isn't.

Maybe I should just run 2.5 quarts of oil instead of 3.7 :)

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:02 pm 
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abby normal
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:59 pm
Posts: 1835
Location: NorCal, USA
When replacing the head on the engine, was the oil restrictor in place in the head?
It is an allen setscrew with an orifice in the center, and screws into the oil passage leading
to the oil gallery from the head mating surface.
A way to check this is to remove the oil fill cap, and cover the hole with a piece of clear plastic.
Start the motor, and see if the head / valve cover fills with oil.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:27 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:49 am
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Location: Crosby, Texas
Hi AN...I've seen you in a lot of other posts. Glad you chimed in. Yeah, I put the little brass restrictor/check valve in the block oil galley that supplies the head. Mine was just a drop in though, with a smooth outside stepped edge. I cleaned it up and put my good eye on it to be sure the little BB moved free.

I have yet to look things over good again about how oil might be getting sucked in. I think I'm beatin a dead horse.

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:03 pm 
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abby normal
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Posts: 1835
Location: NorCal, USA
Texas Bird wrote:
Yeah, I put the little brass restrictor/check valve in the block oil galley that supplies the head. Mine was just a drop in though, with a smooth outside stepped edge. I cleaned it up and put my good eye on it to be sure the little BB moved free.


The brass oil check valve in the block prevents dry starts. The oil restrictor in the head limits oilflow.
During a head re-surface, my restrictor was lost, and I had to buy another at the chevy / geo dealer.
GM p/n 91174219 (suzuki p / n 11112-73002)
It is installed using a 3mm allen wrench. :wink:

And the only horse to beat is a Mustang :) :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
I have not a clue. :oops: I knew about the check valve, but this is the first I've ever heard of this restrictor. I have the 95 factory manual and was all over it during the rebuild. I have not seen it in there. I will go back to the manual and find it. When I pull the head I'll let you know.

Thanks for being persistent. Sometimes it takes more to get through the dense bone mass. :)

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:59 pm 
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abby normal
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Posts: 1835
Location: NorCal, USA
Texas Bird wrote:
Sometimes it takes more to get through the dense bone mass. :)


I have the same handicap :shock: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:34 pm 
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Posts: 219
Location: Northeast Kingdom, VT
I noticed when you said you performed the leakdown test that you only mentioned the pressure drop of 25 PSI at 90 PSI. That's a substantial loss and from what I've seen, more than 10% loss is a problem. But you didn't mention that you tried to listen for the source of the air loss.

Did you notice any air coming out of the dipstick tube? That would definitely mean rings.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:51 pm 
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Location: Crosby, Texas
You mis-read my statement on the leakdown test. The most I saw was .25 PSI...One quarter of one pound. But thanks for reading it and taking the time to reply.

As far as the oil galley restrictor in the head...I've been completely through my 1995 factory Geo repair manual and it is not there. It's not in the written information and there are no pictures of it any where in the manual. They mention the check valve that goes in the block and have a picture explaining it.

It's great to pay $100 for a factory manual and then find out that all the information isn't there. :shock: Had Abby Normal not mentioned it I still wouldn't know.

It will be at least next weekend before I can get the head pulled.

Ya'll should give yourselves a pat on the back...you've outdone the factory AGAIN!!! :D

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Texas Bird
95 Metro Hatchback, 1.0, 5 Speed
Crosby, Texas

Dyed in the wool Chrysler with heavy latent Ford tendencies.
Daddy's first car was a Model T he bought for $11.50 in 1928. His second car was a V-12 LaSalle.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:33 am
Posts: 219
Location: Northeast Kingdom, VT
Haha, I'll make sure I wear my glasses next time. Sorry about that.

You probably know this already but make sure your head gasket doesn't look like the red circled area here:

Image

Notice that the oil passage is completely blocked.

My factory manual for the 96 doesn't cover the restrictor either and it's not mentioned in the lubrication description on page 6A 1-2.

Good luck with this. Hopefully it'll be something simple.


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