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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:48 am 
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SO I have a little problem with random sputtering and jerking at freeway speeds, but it's intermittent. Could this be caused by low oil pressure. The trouble code just keeps blinking 13. Which is the O2 sensor. I didn't think the O2 sensor would cause that.

Edit: Well I guess noone knows what this is. I'm going to replace the O2 sensor and I guess I'll get back and let you guys know if that was the problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:37 am 
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Could be low FUEL pressure, not oil pressure. O2 sensor could cause driveability problems or a bad sensor ground could cause sputtering, jerking, and false O2 sensor codes.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Hmm. That's not even close to what I was thinking. Well I moved the fuel filter to the engine compartment. I've pulled, cleaned and checked the gas tank and the pump. None of which should have caused any problems, but one can never really know for sure.

Why would this only happen on the freeway though. In town it accelerates with out issues.

Edit: Well after trying to pull the old damaged O2 sensor out and failing miserably, I cheated. I hooked up a trim pot and cleared the code. A trip down the freeway showed me that the problem still exists, but it wasn't as bad this time. So maybe I just need to tweek the trim pot some more untill I can get the POS into the shop and have the problem fixed the right way.

Edit: Well I got the O2 sensor replaced and the car still refuses to stop sputtering on the freeway. So, the O2 sensor has nothing to do with it. Maybe I've just got a bad compter? Perhaps a poor spark from an old alternator? Coil? what? I'm loosing patience with this problem.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:30 am 
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Well, the kid and I replaced his Oxygen sensor with one I pulled from "Copper Top" after the first engine rebuild, and it didn't make a difference.
Runs around town real well - not perfect - just misses a little when idling.
Got it up to about 60 mph on the freeway on ramp and the thing started backfiring up through the throttle body - even after he downshifted and almost completely let off the gas pedal. The motor was bucking hard and refused to stop until he threw it into neutral and took his foot completely off the gas. Strange... it burnt a hole through the passenger side of his new air filter. Grrr...! :x
Tried adjusting the TPS a few degrees clockwise, but it did it again as soon as he got it up to about 50mph. Will try counter clockwise tomorrow. Wondering if it was an engine load issue, I had him go up a nearby hillside in 4th gear, pretty close to the same engine rpms but it didn't backfire. Pulled the Bosch Platinum plus 4 spark plugs and there's a white deposit on the electrodes. Number 1 plug looks a little wet, so we'll be doing the PCV hose flip on his car also.

We'll be checking the timing and will most likely install a 2nd throttle body top that I had overhauled before "Copper Top" was rebuilt for a second time. I hate swapping them. The gas line hoses can be such a pain to pull off!

Why it only does this at highway speeds and not at lower speeds going uphill. Doesn't make sense...

Edit: Here are the pictures I promised last night.
The sheen is still on the threads of the #1 spark plug this morning, so it's oil, not a rich gas mixture that you see in the picture. Notice the the #2 is nice and dry compared to the other two, indicating a need to do the PCV hose flip. Anyway, there's the white deposits I mentioned...
Attachment:
White deposits on Michaels spark plugs.jpg
White deposits on Michaels spark plugs.jpg [ 110.47 KIB | Viewed 5535 times ]


Meanwhile, the air filter had this hole burnt in it last night. There was a partially melted wad of the filter material sitting on top of it when we pulled the housing cover off.
Attachment:
Burnt air filter on passenger side from backfiring.jpg
Burnt air filter on passenger side from backfiring.jpg [ 139.19 KIB | Viewed 5525 times ]



Given the oil on the #1 plug, I hope he didn't burn a 3rd valve! I think we better do a compression test today...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:04 am 
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We did the compression test on his car:
#1: 120 (126 on the wet test)
#2: 195
#3: 188
Ugh...
Sticky lifter? The head was just rebuilt...

At least the kid can still tool around town for now...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Looks like a burnt valve.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:18 am 
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Looks like we're going to try our hands at hand lapping a new valve or two. Odd that the problem only occurs at freeway speeds though. zips around just fine on the streets.

Won't be a problem if I find myself a Tracker motor to swap in , lol. Still keepin' a close eye on Craigs list. Wish me luck.

Edit:

Kayo. The probable chain of events are as follows;

Day one after the head rebuild - I took the car on the freeway and felt a giant stutter, violent jerking. I downshifted and brought the RPM's up. The car backfired once and proceeded to run better than ever.

Several weeks later - The car starts to stutter and backfire at freeway speeds.

It seems that from the first day I had burned a hole in the air filter. Letting the TB suck up pieces into the cylinder. The build up of those pieces being burnt caused deposits around the lip of the exaust valve. We have pictures and will upload them later so you can see what we've seen. That seems to be what caused the low compression.

Fortunately we have a newer valve and we'll be lapping it in a bit. Plus, we're downgrading the Bosch Platinum +4's to regular NGK's or equivalents. Hopefully this will finally keep us from having to swap out more valves in the future. Honestly this is getting old.

Update later.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Well a new exaust valve and head gasket with soime NGK plugs havethe car purring likea kitten again. I'll run it up the freeway later and see if she's fixed.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:50 am 
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Here's a couple pictures showing the thin layer of carbon buildup on opposite sides of the kid's number 1 exhaust valve. This was all it took to cause the backfire and to drop the compression to 120psi.
This is probably what we would have seen shortly before he burnt the first two valves.

Somewhere along the line I was told the metal-to-metal contact between the valves and their seats was crucial for transferring heat off the face of a valve and into the cooling system.
By preventing this valve from sitting flush against the head, the carbon buildup would have eventually caused the valve to overheat... and burn.

The Bosch Platinum Plus 4 plugs are out.
The PCV hose flip is in.

Now we wait and see if he manages to burn another valve...

Anybody taking bets? :-P
Attachment:
exhaust calve carbon 2.JPG
exhaust calve carbon 2.JPG [ 63.61 KIB | Viewed 5420 times ]

Attachment:
exhaust calve carbon 3.JPG
exhaust calve carbon 3.JPG [ 42.18 KIB | Viewed 5419 times ]


Notice that the exhaust valve seat is coated with carbon except in the spots I pointed out. I hadn't noticed it until I was looking at the pictures. I didn't expect this since I figured the valve would gradually rotate as it opened and closed. However this would indicate it stayed in one position...
Attachment:
carbon buildup on exhaust valve seat.JPG
carbon buildup on exhaust valve seat.JPG [ 175.73 KIB | Viewed 5419 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:37 am 
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That is quite a bit of misc gunky buildup in there. I'd say it could very easily insulate the valve from its seat and... well, burn up.

Do the rest of the valves / combustion chambers look like that?

In regards to my burning valve issue, I can look into cylinder #3 and the piston top looks just like that. The other 2 cylinders do not. I think the engine/trans is getting yanked out of the car this weekend.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:40 am 
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The #2 cylinder was a dryer version of #1:
Attachment:
Before the valve replacement.JPG
Before the valve replacement.JPG [ 91.23 KIB | Viewed 5367 times ]


Here's a close up of #3:
Attachment:
Michaels number 3.JPG
Michaels number 3.JPG [ 71.76 KIB | Viewed 5367 times ]


No carbon/oil residue on any of the pistons.

We swapped the exhaust valve, replaced the head gasket, didn't bother to clean up any of the gunk you see, and now it's purring like a kitten.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:11 am 
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Here it is, six and a half weeks later, and the kid calls from the road.

It was backfiring through the throttle body again but it stopped before he got home.

Another burnt-through air filter...
Attachment:
IMG_1216.JPG
IMG_1216.JPG [ 521.3 KIB | Viewed 3727 times ]


We pull the spark plugs and find the #1 & 3 coated with thick deposits of some kind of crud while the #2 looks.... well... only slightly better...
Attachment:
Number 1 carbon deposits shot 1.jpg
Number 1 carbon deposits shot 1.jpg [ 216.81 KIB | Viewed 5237 times ]

Attachment:
Number 2 carbon deposits.jpg
Number 2 carbon deposits.jpg [ 311.86 KIB | Viewed 5226 times ]

Attachment:
Number 3 carbon deposits.jpg
Number 3 carbon deposits.jpg [ 513.28 KIB | Viewed 3726 times ]


So... the PC hose flip didn't help.
Grrr... :evil:

The compression test results were devastating...
195/55/95
Oh... the CARnage that must be waiting for us when we pull the head off :!:

Thoughts, anyone?


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:15 pm 
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I haven't been following this but I was leaning towards asking you "are you using BOSCH plat plugs?"

I've had stumbling problems like you had with my Nissan 240SX that was spark plug related and I've seen lots of people have driveability issues with BOSCH platinum plugs.

That said, your last photos show NGK's so now I'm stumped. What weight motor oil are you using and are the valves the correct height and the hydraulic lifters clean?

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Yeah, after flipping out the number 1 exhaust valve 6 weeks ago, we replaced his Bosch Platinum 4s for the NGKs.
The valves that burned were installed during the machine shop rebuild. He was loosing oil and had just replaced the oil pan gasket on Monday. It was apparently still spinning a mist off the front main seal, but he said the pan gasket cut the oil loss by about half with the highway trips he was making.


Last edited by G-Whiz on Fri May 29, 2009 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:53 am 
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I was using the Plat +4's. Been using them in my other vehicles for years with no problems. 3 Escorts, a Mazda 626, Datsun B210, My Ranger (dearly missed) and now the Metro untill that went south.

The oil loss is probably as Dad says. I'm not too happy about the money that will now be going into it...again. Perhaps I should just pick up a 1.3 DOHC and just be done with the 3 cyl's.

Using 5w30. We're not sure about the lifters yet. We've got too many projects going on at once right now so the head is not yet off untill the Dust Bucket is up and running. We may need to move the car around and we'd rather have it still in functining order to do that with. Y' never know, right?

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:51 am 
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This will probably be the motor's last chance. We're putting in 3Tech SS valves and if they don't hold, I figure nothing will.

I look at all that carbon buildup caking the spark plugs, and all I can think is that it must be running rich since the electrodes aren't soaked with oil. Something is causing all that carbon buildup after only 500 some-odd miles, but whatever it is, it's an absolute mystery.

The kid's car was leaking so much oil, I doubt the Seafoam in the crank case was able to make a difference. Although I didn't mention it 6 weeks ago, I seem to recall swapping in a different set of used lifters on the off chance that the carbon buildup on the #1 exhaust valve we replaced might have been caused by them.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:15 am 
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Hmm. I've got a similar problem with one of mine. But for the life of me I don't recall any crazy compression numbers. I'll check it again to make certain.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:50 pm 
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The kid said he was just tooling down I-5 when the second valve (or possibly both) let go.
The EGR channels on both cars were reamed out at approximately the same time.
Trying to think of differences...
    - I know he gooses the car more (which he wasn't doing at the time) while accelerating/upshifting.
    - He shifts down more often than me so the engine RPMs are often higher than with my driving style.
    - I had the injector overhauled on my car where he hasn't... his is going into the shop for that when we pull the head, just to eliminate the possibility of a sticky or partially clogged jet.
    - He has been running with the PC hose flip (like Copper Top) since we swapped the exhaust valve & lifters.
    - Same NGK spark plugs.
    - I'll have to ask him where the engine temperature needle sat - I never paid attention - since that might just might be a variable I hadn't considered before.
    - He said he had adjusted the TPS just a little from where it normally sat.
    - After seeing how the mechanic adjusted the changed the idle adjustment screw on Dust Bucket before we left central Washington, he tweaked it a couple weeks ago to make his car idle smoother.

For all the frustration I went through with Copper Top. this makes me feel better about the whole ordeal!


Last edited by G-Whiz on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:17 pm 
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well, I didn't have crazy numbers last year. This weekend is a different story.
165 157 100 dry
200 220 155 wet
So I guess I'll be rebuilding it as well as the one in my 96. But this one only has 97K on the clock. Strange. Oh and I'll slap some new rings in it as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:53 pm 
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T Bell wrote:
well, I didn't have crazy numbers last year. This weekend is a different story.
165 157 100 dry
200 220 155 wet
So I guess I'll be rebuilding it as well as the one in my 96. But this one only has 97K on the clock. Strange. Oh and I'll slap some new rings in it as well.


Bummer! Hopefully it's nothing more than carbon deposits on the seat faces of the valves.

Still looking for ideas on why the carbon(?) deposits are so severe on the on the spark plugs - and presumably the valves - and why it's black next to the threads and white or gray on the surfaces of the electrodes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:56 pm 
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G-Whiz wrote:
and why it's black next to the threads and white or gray on the surfaces of the electrodes.


that's exactly how my plugs are :huh:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:31 am 
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aside from all that, i have a problem with mine in the fuse box that makes it jerk.
just gotta put my hand down there while driving and press on them a little.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:01 am 
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Look at how much oil the engine is consuming and how quickly it gets black. That was the only problem with my 3 cyl. With good valves, it made plenty of compression--like 185 evenly on all 3. No visible oil burning out the exhaust, etc. But it was consuming a quart of oil every 500 miles, which is a LOT for a small 3 cyl engine and the oil would get dirty FAST, like an early 80's VW diesel. The 2nd head rebuild didn't even last 3000 miles before it burned another valve.

The first time the valves burned, I was really busy and had no choice but to drive the car until it would literally not run anymore. I squeezed about 7,000 miles out of it. Never a backfire, never a bucking, etc. Just hard starting, inability to idle, lack of power, and eventually poor fuel mileage. Mileage didn't suffer much when just one cylinder got a bit weak, but after 2 of them dropped out, ooph. I think I was down to about 27 mpg.

I doubt that air filter issue caused the valve to burn up. Although it never does them any good, engines usually survive just fine swallowing things like this. I've had a lot of engines apart in recent years, and the vast majority of them swallowed something as indicated by a beat-up combustion chamber, but the valves and seats held up just fine.

The engine bucking could be any number of things. Its frequent that I get a customer that describes a car's symptoms as "bucking" and it turns out to be just a misfire on a cylinder and it needed new spark plugs. Other times, "bucking" is an actual bucking like a horse, often caused by intermittent primary ignition failure.

If the oil is getting black and such fast, I say the issue is the lifters. Not that they're bad, its just when they get filled with tar-like oil, they just don't bleed down anymore and holds the valve just slightly off of the seat--like .0001" or so which is plenty to keep the heat from transferring to the seat.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:30 pm 
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I'm going to ask the obvious question...

Head was rebuilt...

Were the rings done? Were the bores honed?


It looks like you've put a fresh head on a tired block... Either that or number 3 has a case of bad rings, ring ends ended up lined up, bore is wore out...

Did you check the valves for play in the guides? Did you lap the valves before sticking them into the head? Honestly, from the pics it looks like you cut this corner.

As for plugs, NGK Coppers > Bosch IR Fusions > Bosch +4. Being cheap here pays, being cheap elsewhere, not so much.

Edit: Ok you did cut corners, 2 exhaust valves are one style, and the other is different... =)

How rebuilt is this head? Old stock valves in how many pots? That pic with the arrows showing the failure points, the intake valve seat is showing a failure point. How many valve stem seals were replaced?

The plugs are coking up because of oil getting into all the cylinders... Take a brass 2" cup fine wire brush on a drill, and clean those combustion chambers, take the valves out and use it to scrub all the carbon off the valve seats, scrub the valves with a stainless wire brush on a dremel or by hand, lap the valves in... Soak the pistons in simple green, and scrub with stainless or brass brush...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:36 am 
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I was going to inquire as to why those combustion chambers looked so oilly. I was thinking that maybe it was because of the wet compression testing.

Just another thing to note... the compression readings of my 1.0 were very good--like 180-185 dry on all 3 cylinders when the valves were doing their job. But even after each head rebuild, I had to pour in a quart of oil every week.
So the last time, I removed the engine from the car, tore it all the way down. Got the head rebuilt AGAIN, cleaned up everything, ran my glaze breaker through the cylinders, new Hastings piston rings, tossed it all back together re-using all of the main and rod bearings, same oil pump, same pistons, etc. Oil consumption stopped almost immediately

I literally made absolutely no changes to the engine except for a new head gasket and new piston rings and backyard glaze break job. It quit toasting exhaust valves and quit consuming oil and the oil looks half way clean after 3500 miles. I am at about 17,500 miles on this last head rebuild. I doubt 3-tech's stainless valves will hold up for you with this pre-existing problem. Pull the engine from the car, totally disassemble it, clean it all up, glaze break it, clean the block again, have the head rebuilt, install new piston rings, re-assemble, and I can say with much confidence that all your valve problems will go away.

Ignore all the E-rumors about malfunctioning EGR systems causing the valve issue. Ignore the E-rumors about high speed freeway driving causing the issues. The only theories that hold water is the carbon buildup in the combustion chambers keeping the valve off of the seat, and the lifters pumping up and not bleeding back down and thus generating enough low seat pressure to keep the valve from dissipating heat to its seat.

I personally had no visible carbon buildup in my combustion chambers and was burning through valves. But the oil was getting blacker than an ace of spades very quickly and I'm sure it was like burnt maple syrup pooled inside of the lifters, and under the right conditions *could* create improper valve lash. This is an issue that seems to be specific to these 1.0L engines. No other automotive engine seems to have this problem. All the most experienced engine rebuilders said that lifters were not the culprit, including myself. But seeing that the problem is limited to these engines, that's an expected response from them.


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