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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Location: Minnesota
I'm back once again. I just got my cylinder head back, and once again, new exhaust valves, once again.

I located a new set of STD bore Hastings rings. Did a hone job with 320 grit stones and roughly a 40 degree crosshatch pattern. Otherwise, I left the cylinders alone. They were visibly in very good shape. I've done this many times on other engines with great results. End gaps of the 1st and 2nd ring are larger than I'd like, but its somewhat to be expected with cylinders that have worn down a bit. Well within the wear limits of .0275". Gaps of the first two rings are the same. I installed the gaps of the first two rings are opposite each other, and 45 degrees relative to the crank centerline. Oil ring gaps are opposite of each other, and 90 degrees from the first two rings... just the same way I've always done this.

I just got the short block back together. No crank bind-up or anything. Thrust bearings are oriented properly.

I am going to buy an oil restrictor from that part number. The guy rebuilding the head these last 2 times also had another "virgin" 1.0 head in the shop, and no restrictor in that head, either. There must have been some years without them. Interestingly enough they both have threads there! He is convinced that oil pressure is pushing open the lifters enough to where its holding the valves open. I personally don't, but anything is possible. I obviously don't know what is going on. With a restrictor, it'll substantially reduce the oil pressure in the head and eliminate that possibility.

I know that the CORRECT way is to have it bored, get oversize pistons, get everything balanced, press the piston pins out and into the new ones, rebuild the crank, new bearings yadda yadda. I consider what I am doing to be a "mexican" rebuild.

I was unable to get any exhaust back pressure. It'd maybe nudge the gauge a bit.

There was no sludge inside this engine--it was quite clean. But the oil would dirty up FAST. Like an early 80's VW diesel would do. The head machinist commented on how icky black the oil was when he drained it out of the lifters. There's still the chance that both the rings and the lifters are culprits of my problem. The rings let the oil burn up and get black. That oil gets into the lifters. That causes mayhem. It should be running by the end of this week if I have enough time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Location: near Burbank, Calif
phantomrt wrote:
I am going to buy an oil restrictor from that part number. The guy rebuilding the head these last 2 times also had another "virgin" 1.0 head in the shop, and no restrictor in that head, either. There must have been some years without them. Interestingly enough they both have threads there!

It seems that only the earlier (Sprint?) engines must have had the restrictor valve in the head. All the ones I've seen have it in the block right below the head mating surface.

phantomrt wrote:
He is convinced that oil pressure is pushing open the lifters enough to where its holding the valves open.

I essentially agree with him, except that a plugged up lifter will usually just greatly reduce the seat pressure when it is supposed to be tightly closed.
This starts the leaking problem and it only gets worse as the valve overheats from exhaust bleeding by it.

phantomrt wrote:
The head machinist commented on how icky black the oil was when he drained it out of the lifters.


Hopefully he, or somebody, disassembles each lifter and thoroughly cleans each component in it before reassembly.

A suggestion: After torquing the head down, but BEFORE installing the cam or lifters, remove the oil gallery plug at the distributor end of the head. With fresh oil in the crankcase, crank it over util clean oil comes out of that passageway. Reinstall the plug and crank it over a few more revs until clean oil comes out of each hole going into the lifters.
Then install the lifters and cam.

Since our hydraulic lifters have the tightest clearances anywhere in the engine they are most sensitive to oil contamination. Particularly since they don't have a flow-thru design - like most V-8s do. All oil must bleed out thru a few tenths (0.0003") clearance.
(the diameter of most human hair is 10x bigger -to give a comparison)

hth and good luck with it.
Pres

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:25 am 
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can tell you factory valves are absolutely shit. burnt out extremely low miles, rebuilt the damn head myself, cut no corners and no shortcuts, dont like tearing into something more than once, want it done and done right the first time.after rebuilding, grinding new stainless valves, grinding valve seats, new seals, guides, the whole kit and kaboodle. these stainless ones faired a whole fifty thousand. burned through cyl #1. got pissed off and sent my head to a guy that does nothing but race engines, hes internationally known, STOUFFERS, did custom work to head, bored everything, has larger exhaust valves that are titanium, (obviously arent out there for this application, something he found that worked) theni got it back and reringed, pistoned, rods, bearings, bored and honed, all the goodies. set me good for over a hundred thousand and still goin, got lower end rebuilt myself for $550. head job cost me $1500, but shes even quite a bit faster now. seems that just the head was causing all the trouble, dont know what, but with oversized valves made of titanium, havent been able to burn one yet :) hope you can straighten this out, and if you discover the secret, let us all know, because its a problem everyone i know has with these things. good luck!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:00 am 
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This is being overanalyzed. The engine needed rings in the first place. Nothing else caused the valves to burn repeatedly. The rings let oil past, the oil turned into carbon all over the valves and stops them from seating properly. The valve burns. new head, new valves, no rings. Repeat process.
I appreciate the warped exh manifold theory, and the egr theory, but none of it matters as long as the engine is consuming massive amounts of oil. Having done 500+ engines(rings, vavles, bearings as necessary), and never having machined one manifold and never seeing one come back with a burnt valve, i just can't buy the manifold theory. As far as factory valves being shit, used a ton of them, and never had a repeat failure. These engines are hard on valves, but with the correct service done the first time including rings, one need not worry about going in again.
This engine will work great with no problems now that the new rings will seal and not let oil into the combustion chamber. It will not burn up valves again. It will not use any appreciable amount of oil.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:55 am 
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He's right.

The stock valves are good. Very good.
Late timing, + bad oil rings = burnt valves.
It's that simple.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:23 am 
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Location: near Burbank, Calif
Lets see if I got this right:
The 3cyl Sprint engines have little or no valve problems.
The 4cyl (G13) engines have little or no valve problems.
The 3cyl Metro engines have a considerable amount of valve problems.
However, all of the above use virtually identical piston rings.

Most of the G10 hydraulic lifter engines have valve problems
-primarily due to ring problems passing too much oil
to the combustion chamber?

And that's supposed to be true even for engines that burn
little or no oil yet still burn the exhaust valves?

Sure is hard to understand how that can be the main cause.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:07 am 
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Late timing, thats the big problem.
It's not the lifters.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 pm 
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and the 1.3L don't have late timing? How would one correct this, a new cam?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:52 pm 
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No.

Advanced timing sprocket/advanced ignition timing.

The ignition timing alone should do it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:31 am 
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Yes, this engine obviously needed rings to begin with. It had to, because that had to be where the oil consumption was coming from, and blackening of the oil as well. There was no other way that could happen except maybe through the PCV system, but I'd find that difficult to believe. There wasn't any wet oil in the intake runners.

I changed my mind about buying the oil restrictor. I decided that the check valve in the block necked the oil passage down well enough. Although the 24 valve heads on my Stealth have an even smaller passage than that, and a lot more valve train parts to lubricate. 2 cams, 12 lash adjusters in each head.

I got it running last night. It runs as good as it did before when it had good valves in it. I drove it moderately for about 15 miles, and so far everything sounds good. It seems to have a bit more positive crankcase pressure than I would like, but a compression test yielded about 175 PSI of compression equally on all 3... just shy of what it was before. I'll need to give it more break-in time before I can make any accurate assumptions.

The lifters were disassembled and thoroughly cleaned. Like I said, the head rebuilder was amazed at how black the oil was in them.

Hopefully I got these rings in there correctly. My ring compressor didn't seem quite up to the task to optimally shove this size of piston's rings into the bores, but I got it done with some strategic tapping of the hammer handle. I'll let everyone know in a few thousand miles how well things are holding up. Other than piston rings, I've made no other changes from how it was last time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:00 pm 
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phantomrt wrote:
I located a new set of STD bore Hastings rings.

I've had very good luck with the Hastings rings, but some don't like them. In Los Angeles, old engine rebuilders swear by them. They've been around quite a while, are OEM on many USA cars and seem to seal my pre 89 engines just fine.
Any ring set will crap out if you overheat the engine, and here in the Southwestern desert region we are more concerned about keeping an engine cool than other places.

If the engine lasts, kindly post a little result to that effect...say 100,000 miles down the road.
Especially if you don't overheat that powerplant, it'd be nice to know how much oil it's consuming.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:07 pm 
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I've never had a bad experience with a set of piston rings yet, except for a set of sealed power, but that was because of an incident where an engine was ingesting sand, which is a long story. Heat kills everything. Up north, we're worried about cars making it through the winter, and the southerners are worried about making it through the summer.

Gonna take it on my round trip 65 mile commute tomorrow, and the way I rack up miles, it shouldn't be too long before I'll have more news to post. I do about 26k a year, so a little over 2100 a month. I got this car in an attempt to save a few bucks on fuel, which I would have if I could keep valves in it. But it turned into education instead, and of course, education isn't free.

I don't think the chassis of this car will last another 100k miles. Although I already reinforced the frame area typical to break, the rockers have definitely seen better days, it needs front brakes, a front wheel bearing, full exhaust system, the fuel filter looks scary to handle because of corrosion. The clutch disc is at risk of ejecting a couple of its springs, so I know I have to take it easy on that. Current mileage is 138,xxx and I got it with 126,xxx.

Anyone have experience with those products that supposedly stop rust? There's a few places I should be utilizing such a product if it really works just to increase the longevity of the body.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Tergo Black Guard seems to do the trick for me as far as rust converter + undercoat all-in-one goes.

Havn't had any problems in places where I have treated rusty areas with this product to date.

And being a rust converter and undercoat all in one makes it a sight easier :D Just wait until it dries and turns black and then overcoat right over top. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:55 pm 
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Another thing you can do to increase heat transfer from your exhaust valves to the seat is to install some valve spring shims. This should have been done after a valve grind anyways.

Picture a motor running down the freeway at 3000 RPM. Now picture a motor running down the freeway running 2000 RPM.
Which motor do you think has the greater chance of valve spring weakening in seat pressure after 100,000 miles due to fatigue, all other things being equal? Now say you do a valve grind and now the seat pressure is even less because the spring height is now increased.

I used a VSI B302 shim on my springs which is .030" thick. At the very least you should be running a C302 which is .015" thick.

Here is a link to an application chart http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-580 ... VSIWeb.pdf

Look under "Chevrolet Reference Only".

Spring fatigue is real and is easily corrected with spring shims. Shims are very cheap and should be installed on the intakes as well as the exhaust. My engine builder guy said it has to do with harmonics??? I don't know about that but he builds race engines from all over the country so I'll just take his word on that. I originally just wanted to shim the exhausts only.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:00 pm 
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The valve springs were shimmed (told so), but how much, i do not know. The rebuilder is an honest guy and got a great recommendation from a friend. He was shocked when he found out that his rebuild failed in short order and swore that he built it nascar proof.

I was re-thinking my unbelief that gunky lifters were a culprit. On my 12 valve mitsubishi 6G72, they are notorious for lash adjuster noise after a cold startup. I noticed that it would make noise mostly when there was clean oil in it. (right after an oil change) When I neglected the oil, it wouldnt make noise because the lash adjusters would not bleed down with the dirty oil. the same principle is probably being applied here, too and somehow causing some negative valve lash and reduced seat pressure. Its not necessarily oil pressure causing it, but something as simple as heat expansion within the lifter itself. If my (and everyone else's) theories come together how i think they will, the rings are an indirect, but ultimate cause of the burnt valves. The rings were responsible for the blackening of the oil and caused the lifters to malfunction. and of course, prevent heat transfer from the valves, and burn them. Possibly another factor ading to it being a bit more combustion chamber carbon buildup.

Anyways, to no surprise, the clutch disc ejected a spring so now i have a new clutch after some late evening cussing and swearing. I have roughly 210 miles on the mexican rebuild and the oil level did not budge yet and looks like it just came out of the bottle. Mileage sems to be right up there yet and it seems to run pretty good. Its deceiving when you have several exhaust leaks. so it sounds like a POS. Only about 3800 more miles until I know that the problem is fixed!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Vert Guy wrote:
Spring fatigue is real and is easily corrected with spring shims. Shims are very cheap and should be installed on the intakes as well as the exhaust. My engine builder guy said it has to do with harmonics??? I don't know about that but he builds race engines from all over the country so I'll just take his word on that. I originally just wanted to shim the exhausts only.


I don't get it. The lift on the valve is the same regardless of the spring. Lift dictates how much the spring is compressed. Lower spring pressures = less stress = less fatique.

All a shim is going to do is maintain a closing force on the valve compared to what it was before the valve face was cut.

Heat transfer is through the width of the contact between the valve and the seat and somewhat through the stem (not as much there though). Stiffer springs are meant to minimize valve float at high RPM's.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:05 am 
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In my opinion, it used to be way more of a problem back in the day, such as the beginning of the 4 stroke engine to the early 80's where valve springs would get weak. Its just age and old technology. Same principle as when Mom says, "if you hold your face that way, it's going to stay like that." Well, that kinda holds true to valve springs, but metallurgy is probably a lot better now than it used to be. Seriously, when is the last time anyone has found a failed valve spring in anything? It still happens, but not like it used to. It used to be that when you took apart a 1970's Chevy small block or similar engine, you would find a couple valve springs that are visibly shorter than others when you set them on the bench.

You are correct in that the lift is the same no matter what the springs' condition is. Lift wasn't part of the equation. When a valve spring becomes a bit weak, a shim is added to increase spring pressure. The spring is, in effect, being compressed more than it ever has, but it is necessary get spring pressure back to where it was when it was new. Its making an old spring work harder. Granted, after adding too much shim, the spring will bottom out and uhhh... use your imagination. When it gets to that point, it was long time for a new spring!

With insufficient spring pressure, when you start getting up to high RPM, the valves will "float", meaning the cam lobe will retreat from the lifter faster than the valve spring can close the valve. This slamming shut of the valve can cause valve damage and excessive wear on the lifter and cam, and in the case of an engine where valve to piston contact is possible, the valve will stay open too long and the piston will come up and slam the valve, and the obvious damage that goes with it. When everything is working right, the lifter never loses contact with the cam, and the valve is gradually being shut, even at high RPM. There must be some kind of magical engineering formula that determines optimum valve spring pressure for the lift, duration, weight of the valve, etc while ensuring there is not excessive cam / lifter wear. Pushrod engines were phased out in favor of the overhead cam because there is significantly less valvetrain mass since there are no pushrods to heave back in to place. And thus, over time, a valve spring that gets a little weak isn't a big deal, since it never had to work that hard in the first place. In my opinion, these direct-acting cam designs are also less than optimum because the lifters filled with oil are fairly massive. The best is a roller-follower setup since only half the mass of the lightweight follower is needed to be pushed back in to place by the valve spring. Then you can get into titanium valve spring retainers and stuff, which are even lighter yet, titanium valves, even more. blah blah blah.

Some engines have dual valve springs in them... a smaller one inside of the big one. In addition to greater spring pressures, a reason for doing it that way is because the harmonics of one spring will cancel those of the other spring... somehow. Its for engine noise reduction. That, and each spring may not have to work so hard, and may result in a longer lasting spring setup due to less stress being put on them.

>>Heat transfer is through the width of the contact between the valve and the seat
>>and somewhat through the stem (not as much there though). Stiffer springs are
>>meant to minimize valve float at high RPM's.

Correct. But I (we?) think what may be happening is that with .0001" or whatever of negative valve lash resulting from malfunctioning lifters from dirty oil, the valve just isn't closing tightly enough. It may be enough to sufficiently seal combustion, but maybe not quite enough to transfer heat as effectively. And a valve spring that is a bit on the weak side will only add to the insufficient heat transfer. All are only theories at this point.

It has to be something that coincides with engine wear. These engines will easily go their original 100,000 miles without needing to be touched, and all the sudden its burned valve after burned valve. The only thing that I could find wrong with this engine was excessive oil consumption, and the resulting oil that is blacker than an ace of spades.

Another 73 miles yesterday... still no noticeable oil consumption.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:04 am 
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phantomrt wrote:
Another 73 miles yesterday... still no noticeable oil consumption.

Thank you for the update. I hope you continue to post oil consumption results, as some people don't think that Hastings rings last.
How about the color of the oil? (You mentioned it was quickly getting black before)
BTW, this car also is running Hastings rings with similar results as you:
Image
and here it is idling:
Image
The dang thing is so quiet, last week I let it idle to charge the battery, and forgot about it.
An hour later, I went back outside and caught my mistake...it was still idling!
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:42 am 
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Oil color is still almost like it just came out of the bottle. Definitely cleaner than it was before. And the engine internals were not full of sludge, so that tells me it wasn't just a dirty crankcase that was getting cleaned by the new oil, and thus dirtying it up that way.

This was the only set of rings I could except for Ebay ones. Even if the Hastings rings aren't the best, they're better than nothing!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:48 am 
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About 450 miles under its belt already. No problems. Oil level barely budged if at all and still very clean, like a new engine would have. Doing another compression test later this week. Got 48 mpg last tank of gas. 350 miles on 7.1 gallons


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:11 pm 
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Still running. 48 mpg on the last two tanks of gas... so its consistent and not a fluke. 46 was the norm before the last head rebuild. No other changes from the last time I had it running except 10w30 engine oil in the transmission instead of 80w90 plus new piston rings. No compression test results yet.

Haven't had to touch the oil yet. Consumption has definitely tanked!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:22 pm 
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phantomrt wrote:
No other changes from the last time I had it running except 10w30 engine oil in the transmission instead of 80w90 plus new piston rings. No compression test results yet.
Haven't had to touch the oil yet. Consumption has definitely tanked!

Might be better not to check the compression...with those mileage results and with minimal oil consumption, just figure it's a wrap and enjoy it.
On that transmission, though...
have you ever tried this:
Image
(Current Autozone price is $6.99 a bottle, and it seems to help with the shifting in cold weather.)
I've paid over $20 a bottle for the dealer variety:
Image
in the past, but the $7 bottles seem identical so far.

Please continue to update down the line on the oil consumption; I want to find out if your Hastings Rings last.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:20 am 
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I never tried synchromesh transmission fluid. A lot of people swear by it. It probably works great.

80w 90 is pretty much unacceptable for northern climates. When it was below zero last winter, just letting off the clutch in neutral would kill the engine. Granted, that was when I already lost a valve, but still. That's a LOT of viscous drag! Forget about downshifting until you came to a stop and / or driven it 5 miles already.

I've been using 10W30 engine oil in all my manual transmissions for years and several tens of thousands of miles. Everything from the Geo to the Twin turbo Stealth. The Geo shifts into gears as smooth as a brand new Porsche. Well, not quite but you know what I mean. The Daytonas and the Lebaron also has the same. You cannot tell the shift quality difference between them now and when they were new. The Lebaron has 170k on it, and one of the Daytonas has 190k. The magnets in the transmissions don't accumulate any more metal filings than when 80w90 has been run in it.

But in a larger vehicle, such as a truck, I'd definitely up the ante in viscosity where heat buildup from towing and such could be an issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:09 am 
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My Mk1 manual recommends 5W30 for the trans.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:53 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
My Mk1 manual recommends 5W30 for the trans.


That's something that has intrigued me - one of our local transmission gurus will use whatever oil you chose, but recommends a straight 30W - this is in a climate where the temperature varies between 80~95*F.

Edit - reworded - thanks Woodie

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Last edited by fordem on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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