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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:22 am
Posts: 28
Location: Los Angeles
I recently removed the head and replaced the head gasket, water pump, lapped the valves, and had the head shaved. I tried setting the timing but I think I heard the motor pinging.

Cold compression test results:
Cyl 1: 85 psi (+10 psi w/oil sprayed in)
Cyl 2: 130 psi
Cyl 3: 45 psi (+5 psi w/oil sprayed in)

A leak down test showed Cyl 1 and 2 leaked out the exhaust valves with the piston at TDC, but not the cooling system or oil. Cyl 3 leaked heavily out of the intake at TDC. Any ideas or suggestions on the problem?

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:55 am 
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Location: Olympia, WA
Were the compression numbers from before or after you redid the head? If it was from before, well... you are not alone. Been there, done that right along with too many other owners on this forum. Opinions can vary, but read this thread and follow the link I posted there to see what worn rings can do to your valves:
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=44871

If they were from after the rebuild, there's possibly a problem with the valves or valve guides. Could be sticky hydraulic lifters also (assuming that's what you have in your engine). There are posts indicating that the aftermarket lifters have not always been manufactured correctly.


Last edited by G-Whiz on Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:10 am 
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I'll look through the thread, thanks.

To answer your question, those numbers are from after. The leak down test told me that the rings weren't the problem, since there was air escaping out of the exhaust for 2 cylinders but out of the intake for one. I'm thinking that it'd be the hydraulic lifters--I didn't store them in oil when I had the head off for about 3-4 months.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:18 pm 
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Location: Georgetown, Guyana
Your valves are not sealing - I doubt it's the lifters - I would expect those to be noisy, but not to keep the valves open.

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'93 1.3 Swift GLX
'98 2.0 Grand Vitara


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:27 am 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Click me:
http://www.teamswift.net/Lihtan/tech/Su ... _guide.pdf


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:28 am 
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did you try turning the crank a little to make sure the valve isnt in "overlap" mode where it WOULD be leaking pressure through the open valve? its easy to mess up a leakdown test.... though the compression readings say something is up... did you have the valves re-cut when you had it all off? or just some lapping compound by hand?

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1991 Swift GT Build G10 +25 psi + other goodies
1996 Metro Build QR25de swap, still undecided where to take it
the lolcar family


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:02 am 
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swift13b: I just used some lapping compound to lap it by hand. I did grind smooth out some edges in the combustion chamber, and I nicked the valve seats a little bit. I'm pretty sure that I lapped those nicks out, though. Can you tell me more about overlap mode?

Phil n Ed: my engine is a 1.0, which isn't listed in that link. I still looked through it and it was a guide to changing the timing belt. What were you directing my attention to?

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:05 am 
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Posts: 28
Location: Los Angeles
Swift13b: For cyl 3, I turned the crank through several cycles to see where the loss was the least. Only after I found this spot on the crank did I check where the leaking was. I think I did this for cyl 1 as well.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:09 am 
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Sad but True...

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:20 pm
Posts: 2973
Location: Saskatchewan
sounds like something is effd with your valves. try this. pop the timing belt cover off, remove the belt and remove the camshaft itself (as to bring the hydraulic lifters to "uncompressed mode") and do another leakdown test. all valves will be 100% seated at this time, so if you still have leakage, you wouldbe pulling the head to find out why...... if its good, clean/rebuild or replace your lifters. infact I have a good set of 6 im not using and just replaced them on my fresh motor for peace of mind. its possible your lifters are old and shitty and just not closing properly... but its also possible you have a valve seating issue.

the least amount of work to get some answers would be to atleast pop the cam out. worst case you are pulling the head again, since you said its not leaking into the pan or cooling system, its safe to say its cheap enough to repair.... just gotta do the work again..
but hey I replace transmissions once a month, so I dont care much about putting the time in... maybe you do

also, what sort of tool/attachment were you using in the combustion chamber? any work I did in mine I finished with fine sandpaper
Image

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1991 Swift GT Build G10 +25 psi + other goodies
1996 Metro Build QR25de swap, still undecided where to take it
the lolcar family


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:12 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
At first I tried using a rotary tool tapered grinding stone, attached to a drill. That was a bit unwieldy and didn't get everywhere I wanted to get, but it helped smooth out the corners near the valve seats left from manufacturing. I ended up using 220 grit sandpaper to smooth out the combustion chamber, then I used 500 grit. After that, I used an aluminum polishing kit I got from Harbor Freight to give the chambers a dull polish. I originally wanted to go for a mirror polish, but after spending 10+ hours doing all that, I said F--- it.

Thanks for the suggestion about popping the cam. I'll give that a shot.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:19 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
I removed the camshaft and repeated the leakdown test. Cyl 1 and 3 still showed signs of leakage, while cyl 2 showed good compression. Also, I could see a difference in the heights of the hydraulic valve lifters. I guess the valves are damaged? I think that I might have mixed up the springs when I was reassembling the head. Could that have caused this problem too?

If it's the valves and not the springs, I may know the cause. I got a scangauge and checked the engine code: p0113, IAT sensor voltage high. The connector was disconnected while I was setting the timing and revving the engine. Woops.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Location: Georgetown, Guyana
I strongly doubt that running with the IAT disconnected would cause a valve problem - IAT - or the intake air temperature - simply lets the ECU know the temperature of the air going into the engine, with the ECU thinking there's a defective IAT sensor it will simply choose a median value for air temp and use that, the mixture and the timing might be slightly off, but not far enough to cause damage.

I'm betting on that
Quote:
and I nicked the valve seats a little bit


Is it leaking into the intake or out the exhaust?

_________________
'93 1.3 Swift GLX
'98 2.0 Grand Vitara


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:14 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles
Cyl 1 leaks in to the exhaust and cyl 3 leaks into the intake.

I double checked the timing and the marks on the 2 gears were still aligned. I did remove the camshaft gear, but I recall that being keyed to go in one way. I'll pull the head and check the seats.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:06 am
Posts: 50
Location: Texas
Hellfire. There's still people who believe in that grandpaw stuff about lapping valves.

Facts of life are that lapping valves is mostly entirely a waste of time. If you have a compression problem caused by leaky valves you almost always have worn out guides, at least on the exhaust side. If you need to make valves seat and seal for any length of time, you need to have the job done with the machine shop seat and valve grinding, with guide replacement generally always tossed in as well. That grandpaw stuff about lapping valves by hand went out when Roosevelt was president. Lots of people prefer cutters for seats rather than stones--both will work; its more a question of machinist skill and professionalism. Therefore use a GOOD machinist at a GOOD shop. Another thing is that a lot of valves don't like to be ground much, like motorcycle engine valves. Clever metals engineering means that there isn't much material to work with. On these Geo engines, the valves are pretty danged small, and there isn't much material to work with, either. Another factor is that the valves and guides are quite cheap for these engines from folks like Parts Dynosaur.

Moral of the story is not to jack around. Don't be cheap. Don't do things the old-fart grandpaw back on the farm way. You need valve work, just go buy the new parts and take them to your local machinist and pay him what he wants and be done with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
I think you have a few mistakes here, that won't be to hard to remedy. First, you basically must use new exhaust valves on these engines. Its just never worth reusing the old ones, they are always close to the end of their life by the time cyl head work comes up.
Second: When you have the head off this next time, pull the pistons and install new rings. If you dont you will most certainly have an oil burner when you are done. Its a fact, and many have made the mistake before. On top of using oil it will wreck your head work in no time when it starts burning oil.
I do not agree on the valve grinding theories above. To my knowledge these engine are not hard on guides, and also have incredibly tough seats. This has given us the possibility of doing repairs on these heads ourselves and avoinding machine shop costs. Not to say a machine shop won't do a better job, but fact is three new exhaust valves and a good cleanup and your head will work great and seal properly.
I would not concern yourself with the lifters at this time. I have had them hold the valves open due to staying pumped up after having them out, but i have always had 0 compression when this happened. As soon as the engine got running and revved up a bit they settle right in and away you go.

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:22 am
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Location: Los Angeles
Thanks for the suggestions.

Cody: If I replace the valves, how do I match their contact surface with that of the valve seats? Also, will I be able to replace the piston rings with the engine in the car? I have another car in my garage that's just sitting there for now. I have to replace the rings on that, but the oil pan won't clear part of the transmission, so I have to pull that entire engine/tranny. I'd rather not do this for the metro too.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:18 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: Alberta, Canada
I lap the valves with valve grinding compound. I do this just as a extra touch, not dead certain its necessary. It does give you a pretty clear contact pattern ring on the valve. You can do the rings without removing the engine.
You shouldn't have any transmission clearance issues with the other car either. Only the exhaust has to come down a bit to help oil pan clear. Little inspection shield for the trans as well. I just realized i was assuming your other car was a geo as well...perhaps not?

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:25 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
Dan White: The guides seem unlikely to be the problem. I performed a leak-down test with the camshaft removed. There was still leakage in this scenario. The guides don't play a role in a leak-down test.

I didn't have a compression problem before. I lapped the valves to reduce pitting that was apparent.

Cody: the other car is a 1986 honda crx 5 sp. I used to have a 1987 honda civic auto. I removed the oil pan on the latter no problem, but the 5 sp transmission on that crx seems to have an extra plate curved around the flywheel. The oil pan comes loose on that car, but there's a bend that doesn't clear that gap. It really annoyed me when I first tried to get to it.

I think I'll take your advice and get new valves and rings then. They don't seem pricey at all. I'll probably lap them to mate the surfaces together. I've heard here and there that valve lapping might reduce valve life, but I've yet to see convincing evidence.

_________________
1996 Geo Metro LSI 1.0L 5 sp hatchback
Replaced valves, piston rings, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, radiator

Economy mods
Scan gauge, warm air intake

Future mods
Grill block, underbody tray, injector switch (maybe)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:46 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: Alberta, Canada
u will be happy with your geo engine when its done.
There has got to be a way to pull the pan off in frame on that crx. Done a few hondas and never ran into that before. Never done that model, but there has to be a way to replace the pan without trans removal!
My engine builder approves of lapping the valves. He used to do all my heads, but got busy and tired of dealing with the little things. He is a cool guy, showed me how to do them and told me to do my own! Just one opinion, but i trust it.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:27 am 
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Location: Georgetown, Guyana
jamned wrote:
I lapped the valves to reduce pitting that was apparent.


I think you're wasting time there - if the valves are pitted replace them - if the seats are pitted either have them cut or replaced as necessary. Let the machine shop do a 3 angle valve job and then if you feel the need lap them for the final finish.

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'93 1.3 Swift GLX
'98 2.0 Grand Vitara


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