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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Vapour lock was a lot more common on carbuerated vehicles. The fix was to install electric fuel pump and trouble dissapeared. And those electric pumps only used around 6 psi max or float would be forced open. You could have fuel boiling issues though I guess.

Could your injector be spewing when you are at idle, then when you crack throttle taking off it is flooding? Do you ever smell gas when engine shut off? What do your spark plugs look like?

EGR only works when up to temp, so maybe? Did you check out egr ports for carbon build up when you had it off?

If you had spare or known good coil it might be worth trying.


I think I would do a lot worse than cut out in that kind of heat. lol


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Swapped out the fuel filter a couple weeks ago but hadnt driven the car til today. Still wants to die when leaving a dead stop after the car is warmed up. Going to look into the fuel sending unit....

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:24 am 
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The fuel sending unit is a standalone mechanical device that has nothing to do with your engine. I hardly think that’s the cause of your problem.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:51 am 
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PBC137 wrote:
The fuel sending unit is a standalone mechanical device that has nothing to do with your engine. I hardly think that’s the cause of your problem.


I thought that was the case. My primary vehicle (03 Durango) is needing my mechanical attention today, so I dont think I will be working on the "SK8" (my metro). In my opinion, It has to be either the coil, fuel pump or maybe the TPS?

thanks for your input :)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:05 am 
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Well, beieve it or not, I am still trying to figure this out. I sent the ECM to http://www.solopcms.com for testing and to be rebuilt if needed. They have a series of tests they do, including some sort of simulator and a heat test for thermal failures. They said that my ECM was in perfect working order with no failures of anykind. :? So, I guess that is the good news. The bad news is I still dont know the cause of the symptoms. They are shipping back my ECM and I will get back to testing other possiblilities.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Image
This sounds like a
Image
fuel
problem.
What are the chances you have dirt in the fuel system?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:31 pm 
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I have replaced the fuel filter during the course of this mystery symptom, as well as the fuel pump twice. I am not ruling out that possibility but I doubt it is dirt. The reason for my doubt of the dirt is that dirt doesnt care when it gets hot or not. After I get the ECM back from the company that did the testing and confirmed that it is good and is definitely not the source of the issue, I will be installing several guages in the car including an Amp guage for the battery, Voltage guage dedicated to the fuel pump, Voltage guage dedicated to the ignition coil, vaccuum guage, fuel pressure guage (for diagnostic only/removing after tests), coolant temp guage and an oil pressure guage. I do believe that motor is flooding/too much gas. Yes, when it does stall out, I can floor it and start it up. But, I have to only be floored and drive it like I was doing a quarter mile run! :cry: Not so good on mileage. Whatever the cause is, I think it is affecting the performance too. Just doesnt feel like I am getting "all she has to give"? If that makes any since.

In addition to the above guages, I will also run another timing light on it too.

I appreciate the idea of re-calibrating the TPS. That was't too hard to do and doesn't take too long, so I will put that on the list of to-do's as well. Although the idle is a bit high, it isn't fluctuating much. Maybe 100RPM. I have also recently replaced every vaccuum line on the car and blew out the fuel return and EVAP lines too.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Gauges?
Why duplicate gauges which are already working on your dash?
Ammeter gauge? Voltage gauges?
Wouldn't you consider that 'overthinking the problem'?
Try to keep it simple...

I would take a closer look at your intake manifold and see if it is the right one for the car.
Your problem seems to indicate a fuel problem.
Some people say 'fuel delivery problem'.
If it is TBI, you might check the map. It is a cinch to swap out a map. However, you shouldn't become a 'parts swapper' or you'll never learn.

I'm not sure what an '89 Metro 1.0 looks like under the hood, but if it was an electrical problem, you probably would have codes stored in the Electronic Control Module.
You've mentioned a problem with your O2 sensor code; this too may explain your problem.
15 minutes in the hands of a competent mechanic with the proper diagnostic tools would have narrowed down your problem as either fuel or spark related.
What did the car blow last time you had the exhaust analyzed?
An exhaust gas analysis would have been cheaper than an ECM analysis - and easily done down at the corner. If you recently rebuilt it and she's blowing clean that would certainly confound the current situation. If she's blowing high HC, high CO, or high NOx, we'd have a better idea of where to start. Who suggested you send your ECM for analysis as I missed that in the thread. The best ECM cannot function properly if the parts under the hood are missing, misplaced, or disconnected. Like any computer: Garbage in equals garbage out.


This vehicle is a perfect example of the need to collaborate with a knowledgeable mechanic in your area. Explain to him what happens and once the condition is duplicated, it should be a quick fix.
We haven't been able to help you because the information you've supplied is insufficient. Even more embarrassing, it is one of the simplest cars on the road. :oops: :oops: :oops:


This driveablility issue should have been solved a long time ago :!:
An engine which cuts out and stalls randomly is not only frustrating, it is dangerous in heavy Las Vegas traffic - dangerous to you, and a road hazard to everyone else.

I'll be looking forward to your logical plan to discover the issue and how you solve it.
That way, I won't make the same mistakes.
:wink: :wink: :wink:

Concluding, you've observed a problem which is vehicle specific and not model or make specific.
Somehow, you've got to get a handle on the problem.
Work logically.
Safety should be paramount in your approach.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:50 am 
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I very much appreciate any and all help I can get at this point. Up 'til this car, I thought I was a competent mechanic. :lol: As for having the "right diagnostic tools". They don't seem to exist in my town. The Suzuki dealership service writer literally told me that Suzuki didn't make Geos and instructed me to see the Chevy dealership. I politely told him that he was incompetent fuck and requested that he slam his own head in the nearest vehicle door jam. I then politely corrected his ignorance and asked if they had an OBD1 scan tool for the pre 96 cars that they service. If I could have seen his face for this question, I would imagine it looked like a puppy when you fart in it's face. Curious, interested and completely lost. Nobody in town has one of these scan tools, I have called at least 6 local shops.

Why the "duplicate" gauges? When I drive the car and it stalls, I want to see instantly if my fuel pump is receiving power to make it run. I want to see if my ignition coil is receiving power to send spark. I want an Amp gauge to monitor the alternator. My dash doesn't have an Amp, oil pressure, vacuum, or voltage gauge. It has a tach, fuel, speedo and "dummy" temp gauge. It relies on sensors to send info to the ECM for them to work and throw a code if something is out range. I do not have ANY codes at all. Good old code 12 (all good), even when it stalls. There is still "primary" power to the car when this happens. No dash lights come on until the car has died.

I have thought of the MAP and did buy one from the wrecking yard. That didn't change anything at all. As for checking if it is the right intake manifold/throttle body, other than the turbo'd version of the 1.0/3 cyl motor, I don't think there are any alternative intake manifolds for this car/motor. It looks original/stock. If I did mention a problem with the O2 sensor, I may have misspoken. I replaced a ton of shit on this car, one at a time, trying to figure out the source of the problem. Yes, the O2 sensor was one of those things I swapped out. I agree with you about not wanting to be a "swapper", but with no results from this and the other 2 forums that I am seeking help through, I keep finding dead ends and guessing games. There aren't any "real" mechanics anymore. Everyone is OBD2, plug in a computer and wait for the screen to tell them what to fix. OBD1s are like science fiction to them. Especially a TBI setup.

I had the smog done last summer, it passed...barely. Higher than "normal" readings. I don't recall what the numbers were. I had put a 2.5 inch high flow cat on it the week prior. I think that is the only reason it passed.
I have chased every theory and followed everyone's advice on this, including yours. I have given the results as I have discovered them. I don't know to provide more sufficient information. "Embarrassing"? Really? Frustrating, yes. Embarrassing seem like a personal dig? I am asking for help and providing all the information I am able to. Insufficient advice like "check the MAP" is why my problem is still here. Give DETAILS. HOW to check the MAP would be helpful. As for who recommended the ECM be tested, ...ME. When you run out of help, ideas and theories to try and test and the problem still remains, you test everything you can. The guy running the place that services the ECMs didn't charge me for the diagnostic testing. So, It only cost me about $20 for shipping it there and back.

I agree again about the idea that good mechanic that knows what they are doing should be able to narrow it down to fuel or fire are the problem source. As I mentioned above, I (good mechanic) believe it is a fuel issue. The "duplicate" gauges will confirm or squash that theory. I am fine with more information made available through a couple gauges being added. Driving around with a Jerry-rigged timing gun flashing in the car to check ignition seems pretty duct-tape-mechanic style to me. I also mentioned above that I will be using my fuel pressure gauge as well to not only double check that the fuel pump temporarily shuts off (my theory), it will also give real pressure reading to be able to provide more sufficient information to be used in the diagnosing. The reason for the fuel pressure AND the voltage on the fuel system is when it stalls after all my gauges are installed, I will see that the coil is getting voltage, therefore spark is good, I will see that fuel pressure drops and that the pump is NOT getting voltage which causes the fall in fuel pressure. IF the pressure drops on the fuel pressure gauge and the voltage shows that the pump IS still getting power, this would indicate another bad fuel pump. It would be my 3rd pump in less than 2 years, so I do believe it is unlikely, I want to be conclusive and not theoretical.

THE question really is, when I complete the diagnostics using my "over-kill" gauges and I confirm or squash my theory about the fuel pump being shut off when the stall happens, What would cause that power supply to the fuel pump to be shut off temporarily? in other words, the fuel issue would ACTUALLY be the symptom and not the problem causing it. Especially under such specific circumstances. Only when hot, worse when hotter outside, and mainly when the car is under load during those temperatures.

As for the theory about a lose wire or connection; Why only when it's hot, drives perfect all winter.

My theory:
It gets hot, something isn't doing it's job correctly and tells to ECM to shut down the fuel. The hotter it gets, the more that "bad part" sends that message to the ECM.

I didn't mention that I also did a compression test last week as well. All 3 beasty cylinders have good compression too.

There are no missing parts on my car or engine.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Seems like you followed all the advice on this topic.

Don't believe this has been mentioned yet, but the 2 possibilities
are bad fuel pump relay and bad resistor.
Your fuel pump relay should be easy enough to swap out,
though you indicated it may be a heat soak issue.
Not positive on your model, but you may have a fuel pump
resistor as well. (silver box with fins on the outside)
This regulates fuel pressure based on load by cutting
voltage to the pump when demand is not great.
Like I said, not positive you have this, but in the back
of my mind, I recall seeing these on some models in the
boneyard somewhere on the firewall, probably near
the master cylinder.

edit: Guess it's a fuel injection resistor..not sure if it controls your
fuel pump or fuel injector...I would guess pump. Nevertheless
I'm betting on this.


Last edited by JamalSpelling on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Attachment:
Geo Resistor.jpg
Geo Resistor.jpg [ 25.78 KIB | Viewed 2161 times ]


The fins are for cooling because these things get hot.
I would imagine they are prone to heat failure.

Attachment:
geo.jpg
geo.jpg [ 61.21 KIB | Viewed 2160 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I do have one of those. I saw in my FSM, there is a test with multi meter to see if it is bad. 8)
Thanks for the advice. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:18 pm 
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It may only test bad when you duplicate
the heat soak.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:50 am 
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hmmm... good point. I probably wont be able to put any time into the car til Monday or Tuesday. When I do, I will post results. Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:55 pm 
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My FSM gives me the range of that resistor at 68 degrees. How will I know if it is within normal range when it is hotter? It tested "normal" around 70 degrees.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:38 pm 
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With any conductor, temperature will increase resistance.

If you can get the car to react, then I would check the resistance
values given against actual values and make an educated guess.

Or you could bring the unit up to a nominal safe temp and check
values then. By safe, I mean not hot enough to melt anything,
but maybe say start at %100 degrees. A hot day there is what,
between 95-105*? Plus engine bay temps brings that baby fairly
warm.

Maybe your toaster oven? Not in it, but maybe on top might be safe
after letting some heat soak in after a couple toasting cycles
outta do it. Wrap the wires and connector with some insulation
(foil) or something to prevent meltdown. Just an idea..
I've never attempted it, but you get the picture.
Or maybe hook up your multimeter and watch the values
as you heat it up with a blowdryer.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm 
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I haven't been able to do much to address this or do more testing yet. I have been working on my bumper and had to take a quick side job (body work) for my kid's water polo coach. Tomorrow I will be back on my bumper and hopefully back to engine work by next week.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
I will see that the coil is getting voltage, therefore spark is good,


Respectfully disagree..

Spark isn't necessarily always good in the motor just because the coil is working.

I am not familiar with the "metro" in particular, but for example if you have a knock sensor module, it is designed to actually regulate or retard the amount of timing the engine gets and might cause stalling if it's sending the wrong signals to the brain. An ignitor module on the other hand controls the voltage applied to the coil, which in turn regulates the amount of generated spark in the motor.

So you see, failure of these components could also cause "spark" related issues and not just the coil in itself.

In my Turbo car, the ignitor module also controls the turbo light and also controls voltage at the same time to the coil when the ignition switch is turned on. So basically, in my own case if I wanted to determine if this module was working or not, I would check to see if the turbo light comes on, and if I can measure a difference in voltage at the coil when the key is turned on. This suggests to me this module must be working. These and similar sort of logical thinking approach "tests" is what you should be considering in your own situation.

Sometimes, there's more to the "spark" generated inside the engine than just the coil. Similarly, most fuel system related issues always seem to be electrical system related issues instead, even though most people think they are unrelated to one another and shouldn't be that way. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Sorry I haven't been on this thread in a while. I have been doing other projects. I got back under the hood today and started with some of the testing. I began with the MAP test. I read some Geo Metro specific tutorials here and on other sites. After performing the tests, I believe my MAP is in perfect shape. All the numerical results match that of "normal". I even did the simple test of while idle, unplug the vacuum line from the MAP, the engine instantly tried to die. I re-attached the line and it regained smooth idle.

So, not the MAP.

The weather temperature is climbing again here so, I will finally be able to try to catch data when the car repeats the stalling issue. I have not installed my gauges yet, they are waiting on my work bench patiently. :)

There was also a theory that the fuel injector may get too hot. That was the most recent item I replaced before dragging this thread back to life. The fuel injector is brand new too. Replacing that did nothing toward solving the problem.

I had also replace the IAT and ECT sensors recently, so they are new as well. I have not tested the new ones yet. But after replacing them, there was, again, no change in the stalling issue.

NEW PARTS within the last 6 months or so...
IAT
ECT
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Fuel Filter
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injector
All new vacuum lines
PCV
EGR Valve

About a year ago or so, I did replace the TPS and O2 sensor

By the way, my car does NOT have a ISC/CTP or the EFE Heater plate.

Tomorrow I will be doing another Fuel Pressure test, as well as testing the ohm loads on the EVAP Purge valve. Also going to test the Tank Pressure Control Valve, and EVAP Canister.

I am running out of tests after this. To be honest, I believe that these tests will result in "normal" ranges as well. Where do I go from here? I can do the Timing run-strobe light inside the car while I drive test. When the car starts to stall, I can see if the strobe changes.

In reference to another post , I have not gone back yet and Re-done the TPS calibration yet. That is on my list as well. However, I strongly believe that it runs rich when cold then warms up and STAYS running rich/floods and dies. Or some sensor notices that it is running way rich and tells the brain (ECM) to shut off the Fuel Pump via the the Fuel Pump Relay in the engine compartment. The reason for this belief is that I tried the "ez fix" (http://geometroforum.com/topic/5096021/1/) of grounding the Pink wire from the fuel pump relay and noticed some results...The first result was that when you first put the key in the ignition and turn the car on without starting it, that relay has the fuel pump turn on for 2 or 3 seconds and then shuts off. After I grounded the pink relay wire, when you turn the key to on without starting the car, the pump comes on and stays on... The second thing I found is it did try to die once after I grounded the pink wire but, it just stumbled and ran rough (getting too much gas) but didn't die. So that tells me that whatever formally told that relay to kill power to the pump was bypassed by grounding that pink wire. This means that the car is still running super rich when hot.

I would love feed back please, and I will post new results tomorrow as I get them.

thanks again for the help.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:26 am 
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When I worked a Ford dealer years ago, I dealt with a similar issue on a car. When the weather was cold car ran fine on short trips in town. Longer trips it would develop a stumble or even die. During warmer weather the problem was amplified. I suspected the TFI ( thick film integrated) ignition module was over heating. Test procedure was to use a 100 watt bulb in drop light and lay it next to the module for about 5 minutes. Started car and it ran poorly. While car was running, replace light with ice pack. Within a couple minutes the engine ran smoothly. Repeating the heating and cooling test confirmed.

Purpose for story. It seams you are having a heat failure of a component but which one :huh: :thwack:
You seem to be narrowing it down. Your next step would be to sit down with a wiring and block diagram to trace the circuits and test components one at a time. Use a drop light or heat gun to simulate heat soak to try to simulate problem.

You say your car is 89. That's very similar to my two 90. There are two different intake manifolds for that year. One has egr the other does not. The wiring and ECM's are different as well, they match the intakes. When I got my convertible from a junk yard it hat an Egr computer in a non-egr car.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:09 am 
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Have u tried a different EFI relay by chance?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:51 pm 
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did you ever solve the problem?


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