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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Location: Trinidad, W.I.
I have swapped two fuel rails and still getting this problem...which is beginning to annoy me to the point of wanting to sell the car.

I'll summarize the problem...the combustion chamber is not getting fuel from the injectors to start the car. I pour a tiny bit of gas directly into the manifold and boom...it starts and idles without missing a beat. If I cut the car off and restart immediately it will start. If I shut off the engine and leave the engine to rest, even for a few minutes, it will not start.

I have run several tests, checked the injectors, fuel pressure, tested for shorts on the injector harness, none of them identify a problem.

If i pinch the return line hose, the idle raises by a couple hundred rpm and if i pinch the delivery hose, the idle drops.

My check engine light does not work so I am unsure if any fault codes are being generated.

Has this problem happened to anyone, or can those with more experience shed some light?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:23 am 
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The first thing I would do is fix the check engine light. You need to know if there are any codes in the ECM. You also need to check the fuel delivery rate. You need fuel at the right pressure and the right flow rate. I have seen that happen, pump had enough pressure but not enough volume. Fuel filter? Check the lines for signs of damage. They can break down on the INSIDE and restrict flow. Have you followed the test procedures for the fuel pressure regulator?

BTW what are you working on? that info helps too.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:05 am 
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Sorry, should have mentioned that the car is a MK3 SSGTI with a modified G13b DOHC...cultus head, cultus pistons and rods, 210/340cams.

The entire fuel system was overhauled as part of the modifications a few months ago. Everything, and I do mean everything was worked on. The fuel tank was emptied, cleaned and coated, new fuel pump, lines blown out with compressed air, new hoses, new fuel filter.

As far as pressure and volume, I am getting what I ought to be getting....when the ignition is switched on, I am getting approximately 250ml of fuel. The pressure holds constant around 38psi and holds for 1 minute after the pump cuts off. All tests were performed as per the manual.

I am getting a bit of high fuel pressure on idle though...almost 40psi....a problem which I thought I had eradicated when I swapped in my spare rail. But I am not sure if this is connected to the issue.

Fixing the CEL is definitely on the to-do list.

Let me ask though...if when the car is idling and I remove one of the little vacuum lines on the fuel rail, and I block the vacuum leak, is there supposed to be a change in idle/fuel pressure?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:20 am 
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That all depends on the method of regulation. I do know that is the way a ford is set up. Lower vacuum results in higher fuel pressure. You will have to check your manual. Are you sure you have the vacuum lines routed correctly?
You still haven't stated what year the car is. Sorry I need specifics. Mk3 covers several years.

You said:As far as pressure and volume, I am getting what I ought to be getting....when the ignition is switched on, I am getting approximately 250ml of fuel. The pressure holds constant around 38psi and holds for 1 minute after the pump cuts off. All tests were performed as per the manual.
The 250ml in what time frame? Was that in one minute, 30 seconds, etc.? You need to time that flow rate and compare that to the service manual and pump specs.

I assume your spare rail is used. Are you sure the injectors are up to spec?

You modified the engine. When that is done it changes the fuel requirements. Some modification combinations cannot be compensated for by the ECM. The requirements may be beyond the capability of the stock ECM. Are you sure you have not exceeded the capabilities of your fuel and management systems?

But like I stated earlier, you need to get the check engine light fixed. It can tell you a lot. If the bulb is good but not getting a signal then you could have issues with the ECM. That little light can tell you a lot more than you know. FIX IT FIRST.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:06 pm 
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The car is a 1994 model afaik...but the MKIII over here carried the same engine as the MKII. 1.3L DOHC efi, distributed spark, 16valve engine. If you look at my picture gallery, there are many photos of the engine.

The amount of fuel that the pump squirts that i referred to is just for the couple seconds that the relay allows the pump to switch on and off for. The modifications that were done do not call for any greater fuel requirements from the stock system. The ecu has the Sandros chip installed that is mapped almost exactly for the modifications that were done.

Are you intimately familiar with the G13B engine? I would say that I am, having rebuilt a couple of them...and I have never experienced this problem, which makes it that more mind boggling. lol

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Don't sell the car. Sit down and analyse this without over-thinking things too much, as it's probably something simple. Your fuel lines seem to be OK... pinching the return line rises the pressure in the feed line, causing a higher idle (a couple of hundred rpms seems like too much to me though). And pinching the feed line lowers the pressure between that point and the injectors, causing a lower idle. I did this test a couple of weeks ago.
Removing the vacuum line from the regulator should rise the pressure (to around 40PSI), cuz you would be emulating a WOT situation (no vacuum). I can also confirm this test.
If I were you I would open the manual and start performing basic tests, before getting myself into unneeded complications... I'm pretty sure your engine was rebuilt properly :wink:
Don't let this issue take you down. Maybe this will make you feel better: I couldn't start my car yesterday... checked everything and it's apparently the starter. Energized the solenoid directly from battery... no change. Than I spent 3 hours trying to get the starter off with no luck. The previous owner tried to get it off with locking pliers and damged the bolts... now I have a car that won't start and there's apparently no easy way to fix it. Yes I thought about selling too :P I'll try to weld a nut to the bolt tomorrow and see what happens...

Anyway back to your problem. Do you have an alarm system? My swift GS used to have the same symptoms and it was a faulty alarm system. It activated itself a while after turning off the engine, but the speaker never went on.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Janko, thanks for the encouragement. Having a project car is one thing, having a project car you can enjoy is another...this one definitely does not want to be the latter....its the most stubborn inanimate thing I have ever owned! lol

If you read my first post, you will see that I already ran most of the basic tests. I am stumped as to what more tests I should perform.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:43 pm 
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So the injectors are not injecting fuel. Fuelpump works and you do have spark.
Are you sure the injector harness is good?

By pouring fuel into the intake manifold, will the engine die after a couple of seconds or will it keep running?

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1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:56 pm 
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When squirt a tiny bit of gas into the manifold, it starts like normal and does not miss a beat on idle and idles for as long as I keep the engine running...it also revs up fine no breakup that would indicate a lack of fuel.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:49 pm 
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I agree with aqqus, fixing your check engine light should be top priority now. I still believe the issue is something simple though, but no way to tell without fixing that light first. Maybe you have a bad sensor or the ECU itself and you don't even know it!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:07 pm 
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Ok. So the injectors won't inject fuel at startup. But once the engine runs it works perfect.

Do you have a spare stock ecu you can try and see what happens?

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:39 pm 
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..Fuel relay working? For example, does it "click" when the ignition is turned on, but the engine is not turned over yet?

...Ground connection to the fuel relay gone awry?

...Fuse for the fuel pump / system bit the dust? Short or poor ground connection in the "new" fuel pump wiring?

Just because the fuel system is "new" could also mean it has problems or it wasn't correctly installed. Don't assume it "should" be ok because it is new. In fact, that tells me it might even be the cause of the problem. Anytome something is new, it seems to either last for forever, or it fails in a short period of time soon after it was installed. .. It's a murphys law thing with cars you know! :shock: So check it over anyways. For example, we might "assume" the fuel filter is not clogged because it was replaced a short time ago, but what if it is?... The fuel pump wiring could also have developed a problem or the pump could have failed altogether. Especially if the replacement pump was made in China. :-P

etc.. etc..

No point in pulling the ECM, until you check the basic stuff first. :)

Oh, and fix the check engine light... (Did someone already say that already? =) )

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:38 am 
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Did you flush your new fuel system before connecting it to the engine? I remember a recall program that Peterbilt had years ago. The trucks with Caterpillar engines were having problems with fuel transfer pumps jamming up and breaking off the bottom of the injection pump. Problem was traced to faulty fuel filter housings releasing debris into the down stream side of the fuel system. The systems were never purged properly during assembly. Thus the debris was never removed from the system causing problems later on. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's right.

Your using a modified ECM. Are you 100% sure it is in 100% working order. It don't take much heat or mishandling to damage those chips. I have fried a few while working with them. Static discharge will do it. Do you have another one to try?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. But giving as much information at the beginning will help get the issue resolved quicker.

Go back to the basics. All engines work on the same principal-suck, squeeze, bang, blow. they all need the same things-fuel, fire, compression. It may seem redundant but you may need to start at the beginning to make sure you didn't miss some thing simple. A vacuum leak will run it lean making one chase a fuel issue that isn't there.

What I'm saying is this - If you touched it, Check it. I'm not saying you did it wrong, just verify it. Little things can get missed on big projects real easy.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:22 am 
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Thanks for all the help guys....and yes, I know you're all just trying to help.

I work on this car myself and I'm pretty much a nitpicker for errors, as I second guess myself all the time and the only way to get over that is to double and triple check over my work. Its not to say that something can (and will, by Murphy's law) go wrong after, which I think is the point that's being made.

I am certain the problem is electrical, if not efi related. Unfortunately I don't have a spare ecu, but I do have the original chip for the engine which I will swap just in case its a fault on the Sandros chip.

To answer some questions though, the fuel tank was cleaned, coated on the interior and all parts removed and cleaned, the fuel hard lines blown out properly with compressed air. So there is nothing to clog the fuel filter or lines as far as I can say. All my vacuum lines are new and properly secured....there is no audible or visible vacuum leak when the car is at idle.

I took proper care when soldering the IC socket and inserting the chip...grounded myself properly (even though I live on a tiny island in the Caribbean and the chances of static discharge are very slim). The thing is, this problem kinda cropped up only after I had to change a camshaft seal as excessive cylinder head pressure caused one to pop out.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:19 am 
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I was once told that most fuel problems are actually an electrical system issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:00 pm 
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I think I found my problem. Narrowed it down to the Water Temp Sensor and/or the wiring harness to the clip for the WTS. The pins seemed to not be making proper contact. If I remove the clip from the sensor, it starts but the idle isn't smooth until it starts to warm up.

Will remove the sensor and check it according to the repair manual.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Got the check engine light sorted....the ecu is code free but working properly in diagnostic mode.

The car still won't start on its own. The issue definitely seems to be that there is no injector pulse on cranking as I tested the injector harness and connector 'C' on the ecu according to the manual and everything checks out ok. I used a bulb tester to the injector harness terminals and on cranking, the bulb does not light up at all.

What else can I do/check...Help please guys!!!

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Anyone?

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:00 pm 
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does your manual state to use a regular bulb style test light? A standard test light either wont work correctly or may damage many ecu's. If your lest light does not have the same impedance as your injector/s your can burn out the injector driver circuits in the ecu. You should be using a noid light. Its designed to simulate the injector with out damage to the ecu.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:31 am 
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If my efi relay is working when I switch on the ignition, does that mean that it cannot fault during cranking?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:33 pm 
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if the ecu reads a low battery condition it can turn off the injector signal. it can also shut down the fuel pump.

these conditions must be met:

the battery under load must remain above 10.5 volts. the ecu must see pulses from the module in the distributor. the ecu must see the signal from the coil to prove an ignition event has occurred.

your best bet is to read and follow the diagnosis section of the fsm. it has a troubleshooting flow chart and the checks will indicate your problem. then in the fsm there are specific component tests that give you the procedure and the response ranges for the components.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:29 am 
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I can rule out the battery...using an Optima Deep Cycle with a good charge.

All tests as per the fsm on the distributor have shown no fault there.

The final tip of the triangle as per your post Richard, is the coil....will be checking that out asap.

Can anyone also say what the spade connector that goes to the starter solenoid carries...is it a low voltage signal or 12V DC of some sort? And where does it connect to? Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:58 am 
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PBC137 wrote:
I can rule out the battery...using an Optima Deep Cycle with a good charge.

All tests as per the fsm on the distributor have shown no fault there.

The final tip of the triangle as per your post Richard, is the coil....will be checking that out asap.

Can anyone also say what the spade connector that goes to the starter solenoid carries...is it a low voltage signal or 12V DC of some sort? And where does it connect to? Thanks.

It's a 12V DC, the wire comes out of the engine wiring harness. It's activated when you turn the ignition key to start position, but I don't know if it goes through the fuse-box first... check the wiring diagram for further details. If you can confirm there's 12V when cranking the engine, I wouldn't mind about it. I have mine wired directly to the battery, through a start-button in the dash-board.
How tired is your starter? Mine was almost dead and I didn't know it, as I had no other reference. When I replaced it, the engine turned faster and my start-problems were solved instantly.
According to the 89 shop-manual the primary resistance of the ignition coil should be between 0.72 and 0.88 ohms for DOHC's, although my old and new coil measure around 1.2 ohms. It could be that both my coils are for SOHC's or that the MK3 Gti's used different different coils. That's a question that hasn't been answered yet, either here or at Redline... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55687&hilit=+coil+ignition. Too bad there's no shop-manual for the MK3's

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:26 pm 
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the starter wiring is a little bit different on the gts as it not only supplies 12 vdc to activate the solenoid, it also provides a signal to the ecu that you are starting the engine. that signal tells the ecu to use a different injector operation where the pulse width is lengthened to provide fuel enrichment and the injector control runs in a special mode (out of a total of 4 various modes) tailored to start the engine.

the fsm has it's own small section of 4 or 5 pages dedicated to ecu operation during the starting sequence. the wiring schematic for the starter control circuit in the fsm doesn't show any relays but it does do a pretty good job of detailing the simple circuit.

there are some pretty complicated things going on with the controls when you turn the key. the vacuum system that controls idle speed also gves you a severely lean condition when it gets out of whack. leaks in the hoses, a bad idle solenoid, a clogged up coolant hose or passageway in the thermal asc on the back of the intake manifold, or if the asc is gummed up with soot play havoc with starting.

when everything is squared away the cold start stuff on a twincam is pretty effective but when you get a problem or even worse, a combination of problems it can mislead you to do other stuff like adjust the idle air screw or ignition timing to compensate. that takes you down a path that makes it hard to properly diagnose the problem and recover.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:28 pm 
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A signal is indeed sent to the ECU, however it's not necessary. As I said before, I'm using a start-button wired directly from the battery to the solenoid. His starting problem is not caused by a missing "starting-signal" to the ECU... unless not all GTi- ECU's function the same way in this matter.

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