TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:34 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
My 88 Turbo Sprint started making this high pitch whining noise about three days ago in 2nd (loudest), third, through 5th gears. Went out to get some beer to prepare for a diagnostic garage session to figure this out. On the way home the car pops out of second, coming around a corner & then proceeds to lose power, coughing etc for another 1/4 mile. Pull over to look at the engine, checking wires etc & all looks good. About a mile to my house so I try again & now it's shifting hard and as I pull over again it makes this metal2metal grinding noise. It's transmission or clutch related so I pull over again. Try first gear and a screeching metal2metal sound as the car just stalls under strain as I let out the clutch. Reverse gear seemed OK though. So a kind Soul in a jeep pulls over and helps me tow it home. I proceed to drain the transmission oil and only 1/2 quart at best comes out & a few small metal chips at best. The car had been leaking oil lately, but it was up in the front, where I knew my distributor O-ring leaked & I assumed it just got worse. I previously checked for a leak around the tranny & found none. So I go get a couple Qts. of gear oil and fill it. Start it up and it once again can drive; except there is a grinding noise that is present in neutral with the clutch let out & goes away with the clutch in. I drove it about a 1/2mile and it shifts fine through all gears except the grinding noise increases with speed where it sounds like a 2 cycle scooter going with car's rpms. At idle, in neutral, with the clutch out: the noise is intermitent (grrrrrRRRRr- 2seconds than silence 1 sec then grrrRRRr 2 sec etc). Press the clutch pedal in and the noise goes away. So I've never messed with a clutch or transmission before, but looks like I may have too. Does this sound like a clutch (clutch component) problem ? Or am I looking at a transmission rebuild/rebuilt?

Any ideas suggestions appreciated,

Sol


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 254
Location: Kitchener, ON
Sol wrote:
I proceed to drain the transmission oil and only 1/2 quart at best comes out ...

Well thars yer prawblem!!!

Sol wrote:
So I've never messed with a clutch or transmission before, but looks like I may have too. Does this sound like a clutch (clutch component) problem ? Or am I looking at a transmission rebuild/rebuilt?

I'd get a good/used tranny from the wreckers (or wherever you can), 3 bottles of GM/Pennzoil Synchromesh and a fresh clutch/pressure-plate and do a swap. I don't think you're going to find much good news if/when you crack your tranny open.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
[/quote]I'd get a good/used tranny from the wreckers (or wherever you can), 3 bottles of GM/Pennzoil Synchromesh and a fresh clutch/pressure-plate and do a swap. I don't think you're going to find much good news if/when you crack your tranny open.[/quote]

Yeah it may be all that. When I towed it I thought for sure that's what I was looking at. But now (with gear oil in it :oops:) , the car seems to shift, as before, except for that annoying noise, isn't it possible that there is some burned clutch bearing or something? That the noise is there in neutral makes me think that . Thanks for the reply.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 254
Location: Kitchener, ON
Sol wrote:
... isn't it possible that there is some burned clutch bearing or something? That the noise is there in neutral makes me think that.

Sure it's possible, but with half-a-bottle of oil running in the tranny (for how long?) I wouldn't even think of the clutch.

If down-time isn't a problem then I'd start by pulling the tranny. You can inspect the clutch, idler bearing and fork at that time. Then get ready to crack-open the box and look for the goo inside.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
martinq wrote:
Sure it's possible, but with half-a-bottle of oil running in the tranny (for how long?) I wouldn't even think of the clutch.

If down-time isn't a problem then I'd start by pulling the tranny. You can inspect the clutch, idler bearing and fork at that time. Then get ready to crack-open the box and look for the goo inside.


Alright I'm making progress here, since it's possible :blackeye: . I replaced a half-shaft in early may and filled the gear box then. It's been slowly leaking in the front of the car? The whining noise just started three days ago. Still the car shifted and drove fine until yesterday. I guess I'm thinking the clutch because it makes the noise in neutral with the clutch out and it sounds like a bearing type noise. I know the tranny needs pulling and it's my only car. So I'm trying to anticipate possible things I need to eliminate before I need to seek a new tranny.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Millsap, TX
JMHO.....if you ran 'that' low on gear oil for any decent amount of time, your whole tranny is toast.
You have two choices, wrecking yard or core rebuild. Only thing, it's VERY difficult to find a good 5th gear that's not been burned blue. It's supposedly easy to get to, behind the 8 bolt cover.
IF you can find a good core, personally.....I'd look for a good core and send it to fainya to get it built better than new. And follow his advice. Worked for me.
So, YES, Transmission gear oil is the life of a 5 speed. No oil, it dies.


[I drove to Austin to get my core, from a nice young man that had a 15 mph 'whack' that took out his front end. What a waste....nice car, but WAY too much rust from Michigan. Even got some nice seats and he tossed in anti-sway bars]

_________________
'91 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. 5 speed beater, built as a fun daily driver.
'92 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. Auto, all factory clean.
'92 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. 5 speed beater back up.
'91 'vert with factory 160 hp 13B two rotor, Very clean RX-7.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
Go Kart'er wrote:
JMHO.....if you ran 'that' low on gear oil for any decent amount of time, your whole tranny is toast.
You have two choices, wrecking yard or core rebuild. Only thing, it's VERY difficult to find a good 5th gear that's not been burned blue. It's supposedly easy to get to, behind the 8 bolt cover.
IF you can find a good core, personally.....I'd look for a good core and send it to fainya to get it built better than new. And follow his advice. Worked for me.
So, YES, Transmission gear oil is the life of a 5 speed. No oil, it dies.]


That's the thing, besides the noise, which occurs with the clutch engaged >even in neutral, the car shifted fine after being topped up with oil again. I'm in the process of removing it, so I'll find out soon what's what. I'm in AZ so depends on the cost to ship a tranny to Dallas & back, but Fainya may be a good option. Thanks for the reply.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 254
Location: Kitchener, ON
Just make sure you don't use a GL-5 rated fluid in the tranny and keep an eye on those leaks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
Well I just removed my first transmission and what a bear of a job for one person. Johnny Mullet & Lihtan's post were a huge help, so thanks.
Once removed, I checked the throw out bearing (seemed fine) and then I spun the transmission shaft by hand and it was making that bad bearing crunchy noise. So looks like my hopes for a clutch problems were unfounded, and Go Kart'er & Martinq had it right. The Turbo is a cool car, but trying to find parts for it is usually a detective script. So if anyone knows of a Turbo transmission, please let me know. Thanks for the replies.

Sol


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
If you decide to send it to Fainya for possible rebuild shippings
pretty cheap if you use the right method.
I used my Fed Ex acct. to ship a purchased one from Texas
to CA for around $45.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=56107&p=420260&hilit=DIY+Transmission#p420260

Depends how motivated you are if you wanna crack the case and
try to repair it yourself. Much less headache to ship it out to an
expert, but if want to attempt it I found a great picture guide from
Phil. Be sure to read the replies at the end about leaving the shift shaft
balls in before separating the halves, otherwise the shit comes apart
in pieces. I also used the FSM for reference which basically is a piece
of shit layout, I took several days to photocopy it, cut it into bits
and pieces and paste it back together in the correct order and
actually match the diagrams with the procedures. So basically,
when it says to refer to diagram 25-7512 for example, you don't
have to look 6 pages back to find the diagram. Anyway I recommend
reading the FSM transmission section from front to back several times then
using the TEAMSWIFT pictorials.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42589&p=321659&hilit=DIY+Transmission+repair#p321659

I'm the type of guy who wants to do everything possible with my own
2 hands, even if it kills me. After doing most of a rebuild on my own,
now it seems much easier, but it takes patience and learning and
mechanical ability. I prefer the whole self satisfaction thing because
I did it. I'm putting the last pieces together as we speak.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47916&start=125

If you do enough reading on this site, you'll find that most of the
internal bits of our turbo tranny's are the same as the normally aspirated.
It's just the gear arrangement in the diff that's more beefy.
The bearing/seal kits are available on Ebay, and if you know someone
overseas they can order you the synchros, but generally your best
bet is to cannabalize a n/a tranny for parts and the shafts 'n gears
should swap over. Yes there are a few differences here and there
like with the ER, but you gotta do your research.

Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
Weather you rebuild your transmission(that low on oil and 5th gear is gone, and spun bearings in case more then likely)
or get a core to rebuild, make sure to get the speedometer gear also.
The number of ring gear teeth divided by the number of pinion gear teeth will give you your different ratio.
It doesn't matter if you have a 1.3L 4 cylinder or a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine. 4.10 differential ratio gears seem to work the best for mileage and performance.
Unless your T3-Ragtop and want to eat honda's. Then you need to build a rock crusher! These can only be built on GT tranmissions.
As for the core you need to find, A 3cylinder transmission in good shape will last just as long as a turbo transmission
as long as you don't run it hard all the time. When you buy the core to replace your transmission, remove the black end cover and inspect 5th gear. Make sure the gears are not blue in color. The blue means the trans has run low or out of oil.
I rebuild transmissions and if 5th gear is blue, I have to buy another transmission to get a good 5th gear.

_________________
Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:35 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
fainya wrote:
The number of ring gear teeth divided by the number of pinion gear teeth will give you your different ratio.
It doesn't matter if you have a 1.3L 4 cylinder or a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine. 4.10 differential ratio gears seem to work the best for mileage and performance.

SOL apart from the Sprint ER which is 3.79 every other Sprint in the States should be 4.1, basically ratio difference is not something to worry about in your case, if you can find another used mk1 gearbox then do so as your's will be toast running with low oil like that, incidently the mk1 box has a dip stick so it's so much easier to check your oil level..

As Jamal mentioned the only difference between a Sprint and a Sprint Turbo box is the differential, the turbo one is slightly stronger, everything else is the same, same bearings, same shafts, same gear ratio's.

fainya wrote:
When you buy the core to replace your transmission, remove the black end cover and inspect 5th gear. Make sure the gears are not blue in color. The blue means the trans has run low or out of oil.

On a Mk1 it's actually an alloy cover, not black, sometimes it's pretty hard to tell if the gears are 'blue' especially when it's covered in 30 years of suldge and the truth is it can run low on oil and be whiney in 5th and not show any sign of 'blue'.

Talk of building a rock crusher is laughable, to use a British expression, you can't make a conker out of a cream puff :lol: and having a gt diff is not going to solve the thin shafts, small bearings and giant ratio gaps that are the root of many suzuki gearbox issues, the best you can do is rebuild it to factory specs, maintain it properly and drive with a little mechanical sympathy.

Good luck and if you get really stuck then I might have some mk1 5th gears kicking around in case you have to rebuild.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
fainya wrote:
Weather you rebuild your transmission(that low on oil and 5th gear is gone, and spun bearings in case more then likely)
or get a core to rebuild, make sure to get the speedometer gear also.
... ...
as long as you don't run it hard all the time. When you buy the core to replace your transmission, remove the black end cover and inspect 5th gear. Make sure the gears are not blue in color. The blue means the trans has run low or out of oil.
I rebuild transmissions and if 5th gear is blue, I have to buy another transmission to get a good 5th gear.


Sorry I forgot to link this the other way. here is my thread on the rebuild I'm presently doing.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=56807

It was a spun bearing and the 5th gear parts look OK, so I guess I got lucky there. Fainya, are you saying the speedometer gear should be replaced even on my transmission when I'm replacing just the seals & bearings? Or did you mean only if I was going to a trans with different gear ratios?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:58 pm 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
The speedo drive relates to the tire size not the diff ratio, on mk2 models there are different speedo gears for 12, 13 and 14' tires, you have a mk1 so don't worry about it, just use the one you have.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
The question I have: can the later transmission be swapped into a MK1?
Things that might be different:
Will the bellhousing bolt up to the engine?
Shift linkage
Are the axles the same length?
Are the splines and seals different?
Will the transmission mount need to be changed?

I have had a set of internal gears and shafts sent to me and internally the early mark 1 transmissions
are weaker then the later transmissions. The mk1 has both sliders and syncros on the output shaft.
The input shaft is all solid gears with thinner shaft diameters. The internal syncros are smaller then
the later transmissions.
THe only thing I know that will interchange is the shift shaft seal.
I am not sure about the bearings or the other seals.
If I could find the internal parts I would entertain the building of the early transmissions for you guys.

_________________
Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
fainya wrote:
The question I have: can the later transmission be swapped into a MK1?
Things that might be different:
Will the bellhousing bolt up to the engine?
Shift linkage
Are the axles the same length?
Are the splines and seals different?
Will the transmission mount need to be changed?
.


OK I can't give you links now, but from what I've researched, this is my rookie understanding. The bell housing can bolt up, The axle lengths are different. Splines well if it bolts in then it must be the same. Mounts? There is a different supporting brace & location for the Mk1 under the tranny vs the MK2. Again this is from my memory after reading through this and other boards. And I'm new to these cars. You should seek a 2nd opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:55 pm 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
Yes Bell housing is the same, splines on the diff are the same, shift rod location is similar, everything else is different, centre line of diff is different so you can't use mk1 driveshafts and intermediate universal on a mk2 box in a mk1 chassis.

From my own experience the mk1 box is actually stronger and more reliable than a mk2/3 box, looks can be deceiving, plenty of guys rallying on standard mk1 boxes, syncro's certainly give much less problems.
The only advantage of a mk2 box is availability of spares and more choice of final drives.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
For what it's worth, I have over 600,000 hard driven
miles on my MK1 Box. This was a car I purchased new
in 1987. I've done the motor thrice, no problems with the
box other than leaking seals.
Never had to split the case. From the first lube service I've
been using 5w/30 Mobil 1. I used to try a few additives then
just the straight oil. I've gone through about 5 or 6 clutchs.
It's back to being my daily driver for now and I used to pull
out the seats and haul heavy stuff, at least half the weight
of the car. Now I drive it like it's stolen.
The best thing you can do is change the lube religiously.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group