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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:57 pm 
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Hi!


This is going to be a pretty rough first post & introduction, but under the circumstances, I can't really help it... (sorry everyone)


I am a welder, who has some mechanical skills, but would not call myself a mechanic.


I recently bought a 1991 Suzuki Swift 1.3 Liter SOHC, 5-speed manual.


My roommate is a mechanic who works a parts dismantler at a local wrecker


My roommate and I changed the alternator belt, the water pump & the timing belt, then advanced the ignition timing 4 degrees. (He said it was already retarded 2 degrees)


After all was done, we took it for a test drive. Everything was fine for about 5 minutes, then the engine just started "dying", and I had to pull off the road.


We tried to diagnose by testing for electrical & fuel supply. I sat inside to crank the engine, while my roommate tested stuff under the hood.


He pulled off the fuel line and on cranking, there was plenty of fuel. (one variable eliminated)


He pulled a spark plug wire off the cap. When I cranked, he said there was no spark. (second variable eliminated)


We had no test equipment on hand to test deeper, so we called our other roommate to come take my mechanic roommate back home.


I called another friend (Ken), who drove over to help. I explained everything to Ken. This time, Ken sat in the car & cranked the engine while I checked for spark.


I found spark, but anecdotally speaking, it "looked" weak. Short, quiet & orange, not long, loud & blue...


My friend Ken Googled "1991 Suzuki Swift, timing belt, and some other details, and he came up with a link to an apparently useful thread on this forum. Now I can't seem to find that thread at all...


The thread was stated by a guy who had done his timing belt and had a similar mysterious breakdown after restarting his vehicle. Somebody came on his thread and added their knowledge of a similar experience, where they found that any 1993 and older Suzuki Swifts having this problem can sometimes be brought back to life by doing one of 2 things:

1. Opening up the distributor and gently tapping the cap & rotor with the back of a screwdriver. (if this fails then they go to step 2.)

2. Replacing the pickup.


Does anyone here have any knowledge of this sort of issue? Can anyone add anything, or even give a rough breakdown of steps leading to identifying the root cause of the problem?


My father passed away when I was 5 years old, so there are many things that a son learns from his dad that I missed out on. Auto mechanics was one of the things. Thank God I can still learn !!...


I am grateful for anyone's input !!!


I thank you kindly in advance !!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:08 pm 
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Need to ask some questions first.
1. Did the car run fine before the stalling problem?
2. If so, since you did not replace any component in the distributor, it is likely not the pickup failing or being out of adjustment.
3. Sudden stalling or no start conditions, especially after working on the engine is more likely due to a loose electrical connection ( includes grounds).
4. I would first recheck any connectors in the area where you were working on the timing belt and perhaps alao the coil wires to ensure they are not loose

Post again if this does not solve the issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Thank you friend!

1. Yes, it ran fine. The timing belt replacement was preventative due to the age of the vehicle. The old belt was starting to show significant cracking...

2. Thank you.

3. I will look into that.

4. The coil wires think makes sense, since the thing is making spark, but seemingly pretty week spark...


Much appreciated Tom!


I will post back whatever I find...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:33 pm 
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A few more things to check. Since the alternator belt was replaced, the tension is important. If your battery was already weak, a loose belt may have allowed your battery to weaken enough to not supply enough voltage during cranking, especially if you have been test cranking for a while now.

Also the fuel line test you performed confirms fuel is available but not whether the fuel injector is functioning as expected during startup conditions. I would not suspect a sudden fuel injector problem but this remains a possibility.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:18 pm 
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Back again.

"A few more things to check. Since the alternator belt was replaced, the tension is important. If your battery was already weak, a loose belt may have allowed your battery to weaken enough to not supply enough voltage during cranking, especially if you have been test cranking for a while now. "


Good point.

The alternator belt was installed a few days prior to the timing belt & water pump installation. The squeeling stopped, but restarted a day or 2 later. The mech said the belt was likely stretched. We retightened after doing the water pump & timing belt, before adjusting the ignition timing.

It still squeeled after retightening, but the mech said he figured it had been allowed to slide so much that it had polished the grooves & lands enough to allow a slipping permanently. He said they used to remove them at his work & sandblast them to restore belt bite.

I checked the injector & it squirts fine...

Thanks!

Will update...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Revisit your timing belt .!
.
Make sure it spot on...
DONOT ADVANCE THE TIMING IN ANYWAY
This is what they call an "Interference" engine
make sure the time is set up to factory specs (on the marks)
.

.
if it is ok your going to have to take a compression test of all cylinders ..Please post results....
.

.
Question....?
4DEG is about a half a tooth....
So how did your friend come up with that number when he set up the timing belt.?
.
if after you get your car running properly
buy an aftermarket advance gear these parts are precision made.. You can't cheat it by just winging it
.
Revisit your timing belt .!
.
.
.
............jv&s
.
.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:27 pm 
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JVS, I think the OP was referring to setting ignition timing advance to 4 degrees BTDC.

I agree it is a good idea to check that the alignment marks for the timing belt gears are aligned during a timing belt change; the OP said the engine ran fine for about 5 minutes during a test drive, after the work was done. If something was off, it shouldn't take 5 minutes for it to stop running should it?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:18 pm 
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"JVS, I think the OP was referring to setting ignition timing advance to 4 degrees BTDC. "


Yes, that's right. Don, my mech. roommate said he found the ignition timing retarded 2 degrees, then advanced it 4 degrees, meaning 2 degrees past factory zero. I wish he hadn't even touched it at all...


I can't help wondering whether setting the ignition timing back to factory zero, or even the 2 degrees retarded like he found it wouldn't "solve" the non starting issue?




I think probably the only way the valve timing could be the main issue (non starting), is if the timing belt tensioner pulley had somehow loosened during the 5 minutes of test driving we did before my Swift pooped out on the side of the road.


I mean, maybe if the tensioner pulley really loosened off, and the belt skipped a tooth, then MAYBE, that's what caused it to die out??....


There was no shimmying, shaking, coughing, farting, clanking or other strong symptoms, only what seemed to be a sudden intermittent power supply failure.


It had plenty of power to crank over in trying to restart, but no ignition happened. The block spun fast & strong, but there was no sputtering, or struggling to get & keep fired ignition, even for a few seconds...


To make matters worse, I have been unemployed for some months now, and have been job hunting significantly. Usually if I get laid off from lack of company workload, I can get work again quickly, but not this last time... Yesterday I got a call from a guy wanting to hire me, but I couldn't take the job because he is too far away for me to bus there and my Swift won't start !!!.....


What a nightmare !!!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Quote:
There was no shimmying, shaking, coughing, farting, clanking or other strong symptoms, only what seemed to be a sudden intermittent power supply failure.


Can you help us understand what you mean by sudden intermittent power supply failure?

By using intermittent as part of your description, it suggests that your engine came back to life a few times before it came to a complete stall. Picture the engine continuing to make intake noises even while stalled, and then spontaneously restarting, stalling, and restarting on and off again until it eventually stopped running altogether. (this intermittent scenario could be recreated if you were driving a normally operating engine while in gear and then intentionally turning the ignition key off and on and then off again while remaining in gear with your foot on the gas pedal).

This type of intermittent (electrical) issue could be caused by a failing fuel injector, ignition coil, or ignition coil wire (these tend to fail after engine warm-up); also check under the distributor cap for a broken off distributor cap centre button or loose or broken rotor tip. If there is any moisture inside the distributor cap, such as can happen while steam cleaning an engine, this can also create a no-start condition, since water trapped inside the cap cannot evaporate.

Quote:
It had plenty of power to crank over in trying to restart, but no ignition happened. The block spun fast & strong, but there was no sputtering, or struggling to get & keep fired ignition, even for a few seconds...


Also, I know you already checked for fuel already, but is your gas tank nearly empty?

FYI reference for 1991 Swift engine electrical (See Fig 3 on Page 14 of 18 for 1.3 SOHC TBI):
http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/suzuki_swift_1991.pdf


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:30 am 
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Hi again!


Yesterday we took off the timing belt cover and found that the idler/tensioner pulley was badly damaged. It was somehow rubbing away on something. Shredded bits of black plastic pulley material curled up on the pulley...


When Don and I were working on this new alternator belt, new water pump, and new timing belt install, I stepped away for a few minutes to go do something and Don works so fast that by the time I came back, he had already installed the new water pump and idler/tensioner pulley, and was putting the new timing belt on.


I noticed a strange looking washer laying nearby. I asked him what it was and he said he found it sandwiched between the idler/tensioner pulley and the little stamped sheet metal spring loaded tension assist mount that the pulley sits up against. The washer was crushed concave from the previous mechanic torqueing it down really hard so it crushed into the curved slot in the spring loaded sheet metal tension assist mount. It looked like the inner edge of the steel insert inside the plastic pulley had worn away about half the thickness and inner diameter of the washer. This was probably the true cause of the squeeling that made us want to change the alternator belt in the first place...


I think the sensation of intermittent power may have been the timing belt skipping teeth on the top end valve camshaft cog, which could have caused the engine to fire waaaay out of sequence, sometimes giving power, and other times uselessly blowing exhaust gasses out of valves that were open when they were supposed to be closed. That could explain why the system had plenty of amps to crank the block over, but couldn't fire up again...


I have ordered a new idler/tensioner pulley and timing belt, which should both be available today.


The parts guy said that the "kit" only included the black plastic pulley and the belt, so I am a little concerned that the same issue may happen again. If the new pulley is also missing a factory spec spacer to keep the idler/tensioner in correct position, it will still wear away in 5-10 minutes of rubbing against the spring loaded sheet metal tension assist...


Before paying for the new pulley, I will inspect it to see if it has anything to keep correct position on the shaft. I sure wish steel pulleys were available.


Has anyone here ever encountered a similar issue with timing belt tensioner/idler pulleys wearing away from missing spacers, or poorly executed installations?


Thanks !!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:24 pm 
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http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=59975&hilit=timing+belt

See this above post's images for the belt tensioner, arm and spring. Pictures are of the G13B DOHC but the tensioner assembly and part orientations are similar.

You can also look at this good YouTube video for install process for the belt and tensioner (it's for a Suzuki Samurai but the same engine as you have in a RWD application). The author is very thorough and covers normal replacement scenarios as well as a more detailed procedure if your belt broke suddenly. (important points about fit of tensioner pulley and sheet metal arm between 3:00 to 4:00 in the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVKXqL9WHQ

Below image shows the parts which attach your tensioner to the engine.
Image

Good luck
Tom


Last edited by suzukitom on Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:47 pm 
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By the way, jaguar, vettes and sprints (JVS) original hunch and advice to you was bang on to revisit your timing belt installation.

<Edit> The SOHC 8-valve G13A has a non-interference valve train so, the engine will not suffer any valve damage even if incorrect cam timing results from belt breakage or slippage due to a seized tensioner.

I think there are a few lessons for all of us here:

(1) when you buy a car which may have been incorrectly serviced by the previous owner, replacing the parts in the same manner as you found them is no substitute for consulting either a service manual, and/or seeking an exploded diagram which shows the relationship of the parts you are repairing.

(2) Some of the more experienced members of Teamswift have a knack for knowing when to suggest re-checking a procedure which has already have been performed. This is the wise principle of always verifying your own work before moving on..


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:02 am 
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I have a new tensioner/idler pulley & belt ready to re-install tomorrow after Don gets off work, so I will try to make time to watch closely the YouTube vid posted. (much thanks to Suzuki Tom for posting the link !!)


Donny called a local wrecker today who said it is/was common for these engines to have timing tensioners self destruct after about 60,000 K or so... He also said that even though they are technically interference engines, they rarely die from what happened, unless they were near redline before the belt or tensioner let go...


I fear my problem will be eliminated soon, and this good site will either be sold to someone with bad motives, or simply shut down due to continuing co$t$ that offer limited return to the owner/creator...


Maybe we should pool our meager resource$ to offer the owner enough to buy it and co-op own this site ...


The Peoples Republic of Swift!!!


(just a thought...)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:09 am 
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I was looking at Tom's pic of the assembly that is used to mount & adjust the idler/tensioner pulley when it occurred to me another possible reason why my tensioner pulley got so mangled after only 5 minutes drive:


Maybe when the idler/tensioner pulley was slid over the hex bolt, the spring loaded sheet metal cam pin was inserted outside of the hole it is supposed to fit into... This might have happened, leaving the pin sticking out where it could bite into the outer plastic pulley body, not into the hole engineered for it in the inner metal bearing race hub...


I will keep an eye on this during the next installation...


Thanks again everyone !!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:49 pm 
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Hi again everyone.



We replaced the old mangled timing tensioner pulley, realigned the shafts, then replaced the timing belt as second time. The old one seemed to still be okay, but to be safe, we installed the new one anyway.


It fired right up. It runs fine, but there is a slight whine, like an angry squirrel chirping away down in there somewhere. I say chirping because the whine is not constant, like a car horn held down. It's consistently intermittent, like wiper blades.


For now, we left the timing belt cover off until this work proves itself as a solid cure, and so that we have access to hear any odd noises better if any more develop.


Don figures we should toss out the old timing belt cover and put on a new one. (anyone got one 4 sale? I will check the classified section. To bad it's so hard to search through.)


Don also figures the chirping squirrel noise is just the belt and tensioner getting worn in.


The old cover was almost rubbed through at the area over the tensioner pulley. I know it was the old pulley that was rubbing it because the edge of the pulley left a clear size & shape wear mark where it almost abraded through.


What's strange is that I don't know what cause the abrasion to happen because the abrasion was ground into the cover at an angle, but the pulley was found seized against the belt, but still parallel to the water pump mounting plate, which is against the side of the block. In other words, the abrasion appears to indicate that the cover may have somehow been crushed up against the side of the pulley at a 45 degree angle, or else it happened before I bought the car and the damage wasn't noticed the first time we tried to complete the work...


I need to find a replacement timing belt cover before winter comes. It doesn't snow much here in the Surrey/Vancouver area, but I still need one. I don't want slush to hydro the timing belt off...


Any input on any of this?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:04 pm 
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A new tensioner pulley should not make any noise. When you installed it the spring should be the only thing which is exerting tension force for the timing belt.. rotate engine 2 revolutions and let arm/spring assemply find natural tension) before you tighten the stud (a nut is used to snugly hold the timing belt cover a safe clearance away from timing belt assembly) to the slot in the sheet metal arm in position against the engine block. If you have too much tension, you may ruin the bearing. The tensioner bearing should spin freely before you install the timing belt. Did you watch the YouTube video?

A new timing belt cover should still be available from suzuki dealer. It is common for all covers to warp over time and cut a groove like you observed. New ones should be cheap since they sell so many to swift / geo owners.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:02 pm 
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This is how it goes I'm not kidding.!

So you sorted out your timing belt Issues
now your alternator is starting to whine a bit sometimes under load
with multi-meter in hand when you hear that noise again .See what voltage is at your battery
if you have above 12+ voltage suspect alternator bearing
.

_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Twice now I have typed out fairly long detailed replies to your guys posts, but when I tried to actually click on "submit to publish the posts, the page suddenly went off back to the initial login page and when I reched this thread, my posted replies were not there !!.... (very frustrating!!...)

I even sent a PM to Lihtan about it, but there has been no reply. I hope there isn't something wrong with the forum's security or timing out settings... I don't know whether the forum's security programming forgets who I am, & logs me out because of a security glitch, or whether I am somehow getting "timed out" because I am taking so long to write my posts that the forum's software thinks I have gone dormant???...

Has anyone experienced this here before??


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:48 pm 
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My other mechanic friend John (not Don), emailed me this bit of text regarding servicing the timing belt on my car's engine:

1991 Suzuki SWIFT
Submodel: L | Engine Type: L4 | Liters: 1.3
Fuel Delivery: FI | Fuel: GAS
Timing Belt
1. Remove the timing belt cover.
2. Align the upper and lower timing marks.
3. Loosen the timing belt tensioner. Push the tensioner by hand.
4. Remove the belt.
5. Remove the tensioner, tensioner plate, tensioner spring, and the spring damper.
6. Inspect the components thoroughly. Refer to the inspection points below.
To install
7. Install the tensioner plate to the tensioner.
8. Install the tensioner assembly to the block but, do not torque down. Make sure that the arrow matches
the plate movement.
9. Be sure that the timing marks are aligned.
10. Remove the cylinder head cover.
11. Loosen all the valve adjusting screws.
12. Install the timing belt with the tensioner spring and damper with the timing mark aligned and the
tensioner pushed up.
13. With no slack, install the timing belt. Then put the tensioner stud in.
14. Turn the crankshaft two rotations clockwise after installing it. Make sure that there is no slack in the
belt and torque the stud to 97 in. lbs. (11 Nm) and the tensioner bolt to 20 ft. lbs. (27 Nm).
15. Install the timing belt cover.


Steps 10 & 11 are a mystery to me !!...

Why would anyone go fiddling around with the valve adjusting screws, just to re & re a timing belt??

Yeah sure, I understand the belt drives the valve camshaft that actuates the valves, so the 2 are related, but why would the situation call for this??

It doesn't even say to retighten them after installing the belt & setting the tensioner !!!

I know it's obvious they need to be retightened after setting the tensioner, but why even mention loosening them, if retightening them isn't also mentioned in singular step-by-step fashion?

I doubt that the valve adjustment screws even need to be loosened in the first place...

Am I wrong? If so, then it matters because I am pretty sure no valve adjusting screws were loosened to re & re the timing belt...

By the way, I am grateful for all your guy's input !!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:48 am 
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Re: timeouts. There is a time out (I think it is about 15 minutes) so you can lose your post. If I think I am going to be distracted while writing a long post, I fire up Notepad to compose then copy-paste into Teamswift message box when ready to submit.

Re: Interference engine 1.3 SOHC 8V. For some reason this topic comes up every so often, and people get into big arguments over whether their reference information is better than the next person's reference info, or whether reference information is more infallible than some Swifters' actual empirical tests on their own cars indicate that at least hand rotating the crankshaft with putty placed in the combustion chamber proved that no valves came into contact with a piston top.

It does not help that the Suzuki Factory Service Manual which your friend is quoting most of the steps..
(also here on Teamswift: http://www.teamswift.net/Lihtan/tech/Suzuki_Timing_belt_install_guide.pdf
The FSM procedure actually implies that the (89-93) 1.3 SOHC 8V engine should be treated as if it were an interference engine, and therefore requires valve adjusters to be backed off and then readjusted when replacing the timing belt (under conditions where the belt snapped in operation).

Perhaps someone here can re-confirm (without re-opening a big debate) whether there are any (North American market) variants of the 1.3 SOHC 8V that are true interference engines, and whether the caution from Suzuki stated in their global FSM is due to unnecessary caution, or whether there are in existence specific versions of the 1.3 SOHC 8V that use different cam/lift, piston or valve/port specs that make them interference engines.

<edit> The 1.3 SOHC 8V engines in Swifts switched over to a 1.3 SOHC 16V design in North America starting with 1998 Swifts. 1.3 SOHC 8V between 1994-1997 switched to hydraulic lifter design. Pictures comparing heads are added below. The Suzuki FSM caution for the 1.3 SOHC 8V was highlighted for the 1989-1993 model years, which were direct valve/rocker design. It seems the caution was there to encourage valve lash adjustments to be made during a timing belt change rather than to warn of potential interference damage. Additional visual differentiation details: The 1997 timing belt is 1 inch wide, while the 1991 timing belt is 0.75 inch wide


Image
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:14 pm 
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"The Suzuki FSM caution for the 1.3 SOHC 8V was highlighted for the 1989-1993 model years, which were direct valve/rocker design. It seems the caution was there to encourage valve lash adjustments to be made during a timing belt change rather than to warn of potential interference damage."

Thanks Tom!

I figure if it were a true interference engine, there would have already been some serious valve damage apparent when we first fired it up after switching belts. The damage would have been done by the fact that I found the first tensioner pulley jammed somehow with tons of black plastic abraded away by the belt.

I appreciate the detail!...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Timing covers are aplenty.
You want Dorman part #635-702

http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-28645-6 ... origin=YMM

They are trending on Ebay right now for about $20.00 here in the states.
Last year I paid maybe double that.

They tend to warp over time, and the steel inserts where the bolts go in will fall out.
(they are there to prevent crushing the plastic when tightening the fasteners and
the bond breaks with time, age and heat so it is common to lose them when
doing the timing belt) The other problem is that the timing cover seal tends to
soak up oil if you have any leaks, then the seal expands forcing the timing cover
outward and against any rotating item, mainly the lower crank pulley, so it's very
common to see them rubbed through around the crank pulley on at least
1st gen Suzuki's.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:37 pm 
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Thanks Jamal !

I paid $40 for mine recently...


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