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 Post subject: 1.0L won't start cold
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
98 Geo Metro 5 spd AC
in frame rebuild head rebuilt with new guilds valve stem seals, valve job.
block got new pistons, rings, main and rod bearings.
new timing belt and tensioner.
brake in oil was castrol 5/30 petroleum based not synthetic.
Car started and ran fine after the rebuild.
After about 300 miles on the rebuild, if you let the engine cool down to completely cold
then try and start the car, the engine spins like there is no compression.
The lifters are pumped up and will not allow the valves to close.
Eventually the engine will fire and run.
Once the engine get warm, it will start fine for the rest of the day.
It is just when the engine cools down completely that the no compression issue shows up.

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:21 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
fainya wrote:
98 Geo Metro 5 spd AC
n.
The lifters are pumped up and will not allow the valves to close.
.

.
can you tell me more about your lifters.?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:10 am
Posts: 342
Location: Palm Springs, Calif
What exactly is a 'no compression issue' (kindly provide values).
:shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:10 am
Posts: 342
Location: Palm Springs, Calif
fainya hasn't been online to answer my question yet, so I'll give him a little more homework:::

pacapo wrote:
What exactly is a 'no compression issue' (kindly provide values).
:shock:


Like the little man said, "Back off! This is MY rodeo!".

I normally don't post in a thread regarding OBD II, but don't let that fool you into thinking that the newer on board database system is foreign to me.
My first license to smog cars was sent to me by the State of California over 30 years ago and I embrace the technology which has served us well since then.
Or as the old song goes, Baby, I know a little, and I can guess the rest...
:-P

You should use a logical plan of attack to solve this starting issue.


First, look at the mechanical issues.
ie - low, no compression when cold -
If that is okay, then you can pretty much rule out valve timing.

Next, look at the last thing you did to it.
Unfortunately, this is very difficult because you varied many items over the last few days.
It is likely one of the variables caused the cold start issue.
But which one?
Valves sliding in the guides?
Does it consume oil?
Does it smoke?
Has anyone else tried to help you with this issue at Geopalooza?
Did you change the lifters?
It ran fine on the old lifters or no?
Odd ball noises when she runs?

Suppose it burnt a valve on a long trip.
This might indicate a lean burn issue.
Who knows, there may be a problem with the fuel delivery which existed prior to your recent rebuild.
Again, we aren't sure without more information.
The radiator might be wasted.
Did the fan overwork the alternator, or did the alternator crap out lately?
This is often misdiagnosed.
Of course, an alternator crapping out after a rebuild might be something as simple as overtightening the belt!
:razz:
Hopefully the operator felt the drag on the engine, turned off his sound system long enough to hear any belt screeching and shut the engine down before it actually threw a belt.
:drunk:

This is a California car, so it has to have all the emissions sensors, and they have to work.
But it's been a year since he's had it sniffed. Are they still on and working?
(Too bad he didn't post his smog results from last September.)
We would know the condition of the engine prior to the recent massaging.

Once you've ruled out mechanical issues, you can work on the electrical issues.
That's why a compression test is the logical place to start and why you were told to post those values.
It is the only thing in your background information that doesn't make sense.

Going back to electrical diagnosis, the simplest place to start is codes.
ie- is it throwing codes?
But keep this in mind, little grasshopper:

There are several 'cross-over' parts on that engine which have an electrical and a mechanical component.
Fuel injectors (or in this case, fuel injector) could be an issue.
Swapping in a fuel injector from a junkyard car would be an easy way to check it.
Is there a cold start sensor which has failed to trigger the fuel injector during a normal cold start cycle?

If you've ruled out all the mechanical and electrical issues, it would be time to check the evaporative emissions components.
What are those?
They are the funny looking abbreviations on the sticker under the hood.
A mild vacuum condition should exist once the car is running at certain locations to recover vapors and burn them.
Sometimes lines get crossed during assembly and sometimes valves get stuck.
Have you checked the evap system?

This is an easy diagnosis if you think carefully and ask yourself several basic questions.

1.) Is it a fuel delivery issue?
2.) Is it a combustion issue?
3.) Is it a sensor issue?
4.) Is it an emissions component issue?

Failing that, you can crack open the factory service manual and you'll find a flow chart to help you on your way.

It sounds like you have identified the issue as a mechanical problem.
When the engine is completely cold, take a compression gauge, pull all 3 spark plugs and see what you get for compression.

If you eventually determine that indeed, it is a lifter issue, I would replace all 6, no matter how tempting it might be to replace only the intakes.

Don't feel like the Lone Stranger.
Many of us have had more difficult things to diagnose than what's on your plate at the moment.
In a few weeks, you'll look back at this and laugh.
In a few years, you'll have totally forgotten about it.

Remind him that his car won't pass emissions until he, ahem, repairs his exhaust.
He's got another 12 months to save for the new parts.
Any self respecting 'automotive tech' driving in California knows the best way to fix the car without smelling up the roads with stinky exhaust.
I'm sure he'll get with the program.
:alien:

I like it when the owner posts the issues, but you seem to be doing a decent job.

Hay - it's your rodeo - if you'd rather tear back into that engine, who am I to stop you?


:-P


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
The low compression can be heard when you try and start the car. The engine spins with less effort then an engine with good compression. The lifters are staying pumped up and not allowing the valves to close to get compression. This happens only
with a cold engine.
With phil as usual his responses are to long and rambling for me to read more then the 1st couple of lines.
I usually can't finish his responses. So I ignore them. Try a response with 25 words or less and I might be able to read them.

I have changed the oil back to moble-1 5/30w full synthetic. I have removed the lifters, cleaned the pariffin out of the check
ball in the lifter and used moble-1 to reoil them. Engine starts cold and runs fine.
My conclusion is that the Castrol motor oil is not compatible with the moble-1 full synthetic oil. mix the two oils and you get
pariffin blockage in the lifters that will not allow the lifers to bleed down.
Lawrence is now on his way back to California with a rebuilt transmission and a rebuilt engine.
I got a call from him saying that the engine and transmission are running great.
MPG is down due to a burned out CAT that we had to gut just to get the engine to respond.
He will replace the CAT once he gets back to California.

_________________
Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:10 am
Posts: 342
Location: Palm Springs, Calif
Our emotional member wants a 25 word or less reply?
Good luck with that.
Not sure about you, but I grew up in a Country with 'free speech'.
You might try it some time.
A lot of people died so you could.

fainya wrote:
With phil as usual his responses are to long and rambling for me to read more then the 1st couple of lines.
I usually can't finish his responses. So I ignore them. Try a response with 25 words or less and I might be able to read them.



Only a High School drop out or someone with NO patience would not be able to finish one of my responses.
They are written in plain English.
Was there a word written you couldn't understand?
When someone goes out of their way to help you,
you should THANK them!

I'm going to ASSUME you mean 'TOO LONG' and not 'to long'. It trips up most people in second grade.
An additional English lesson here regards 'rambling' - rambling means a response which doesn't follow a logical thought process. You might not have the patience to read my response, but it was quite logical, well thought, and on topic.
If you were NOT able to fix the car, you would have gone back and read my post carefully, following my advice which is similar to what you'd find in the manual.
It is sad you weren't able to do a compression test as I told you.
I didn't ask you what it SOUNDED like when you try and start it cold.
A simple compression test would help the next guy.
But then, you'd have to be thinking of someone besides yourself.
That concept might have escaped you.
I totally understand.

This reminds me of the old story about the clay pot and the iron one.
You want to hear it?

If you're going to get smart with my posts, next time fix it right the first time.
And don't complain you're getting tired of working on his car via PM!
:shock:
Or try to put the blame on wax production due to mixing of two oils.
Own up to your mistake and move on.

Cars are inanimate objects.
They don't 'care' how you 'feel'.
The car won't be fixed any sooner or better if you swear when you drop a wrench.



fainya wrote:

I have changed the oil back to moble-1 5/30w full synthetic. I have removed the lifters, cleaned the pariffin out of the check
ball in the lifter and used moble-1 to reoil them. Engine starts cold and runs fine.
My conclusion is that the Castrol motor oil is not compatible with the moble-1 full synthetic oil. mix the two oils and you get
pariffin blockage in the lifters that will not allow the lifers to bleed down.
Lawrence is now on his way back to California with a rebuilt transmission and a rebuilt engine.
I got a call from him saying that the engine and transmission are running great.
MPG is down due to a burned out CAT that we had to gut just to get the engine to respond.
He will replace the CAT once he gets back to California.


If you had read my post, you'd see I mentioned the catalytic converter (cat).
Replacing it won't affect mileage.
But not being a certified smog tech, you probably didn't know that.

His mileage is down?
Hmmm.
Something still isn't fixed properly, cowboy.

And finally - what exactly is moble ?
Is that some kind of product?
Or is that what you've done to your head before reading one of my helpful posts?

:-P

Shame on you for complaining you're getting too much help on the open forum from your big brother!

Image
(Phil and fainya, my adopted little brother on the right! Gee, now I've got FOUR little brothers!)

Don't worry.
fainya didn't read this far.
Remember, he wants a 25 word or less post or he'll IGNORE it.

I got your Texas gummed up lifters and I'll raise you one California Smog Tech, bro.
That's right.
I'm the man.
So listen to this: next time you rebuild the engine, clean or replace the lifters...duh.
And stop blaming everyone else.
:thumbsup:

As far as I'm concerned, that car is still not fixed properly.
The clown wouldn't do a compression test?
What kind of mechanic is that? Either emotional or incompetent.
Neither is acceptable where I got my licenses.
But might be okay in Texas.
I thought Texas mechanics were better than that.
Wait - I KNOW Texas mechanics are better than that!

And the owner, if he is reading this - and I'm sure he is because he isn't constrained to a 25 word post limit - should fix the cat ASAP and see what she'll blow.
If she blows as clean as a car off the show room floor, then it gets a clean bill of health.
If not - fix the component the emissions test finds weak so the engine will last 7 - 10 years.
You've just spent hundreds of dollars on the car.
How else can you be SURE it was fixed right?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1408
Location: Alberta, Canada
Of all the engines I did, I had this happen once exactly the same as you. It was a bear to sort out, lifters pumped up and it spun free once in awhile. The issue was oil pump relief valve sticking. It forces the lifters open once the engine builds to much pressure. I found it by using a live pressure gauge, it was very apparent. Not sure what caused it on just one single engine out of hundreds I built.
It's not an oil issue. Try a live oil pressure test when it's acting up and see what you find.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
Again Phils replay is unreadable. I just ignored it.
Cody, thanks for the oil pump info. It was the only thing I did not change as
we where running out of time and Lawrence was running out of money.
I will pass the information onto Lawrence and have him get a new oil pump.

_________________
Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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