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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:32 am 
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This is a follow up in the saga related to CellDamage's Tie Fighter Metro - and a new cautionary tale for all of us Metro/Swift owners: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42797 (Sputtering and jerking at freeway speeds)

Here we are, 5 years later. In 2010 Tie ended up sidelined...
until earlier this year when, with limited funds available, CellDamage scavenged parts from my old Ice Bucket Metro (groan... my eyes closed, shaking my head) to put Tie back on the road.

All was well and good for a time until one day when Tie's motor started dousing everything in the passenger side of the engine compartment with oil, eventually taking out an alternator in the process. Meanwhile, the center and distributor end of the head remained nice and dry.

Unable to diagnose the source of the leak, today - and too late for Tie's motor, as it turns out - he had me over for a post-mortem confirmation that the motor was toast (water in the cooling system & a loud knocking in the bottom end), and asked me what I thought was the source of the oil leak.
Popping the hood, it took all of maybe 5 seconds to figure it out.

TeamSwifters, let's see who can beat my time.
Here's what I saw (EDIT - With the engine being toast, this picture was taken AFTER I told CellDamage to pop the valve cover. Sorry, Metro-Mike, while incorrect, that was still a good one! :) Note the line of demarcation for the oil droplets where the air snorkel is clamped to the air filter cover):


Attachments:
Oil soaked engine Compartment2015-11-29_14 20 27.jpg
Oil soaked engine Compartment2015-11-29_14 20 27.jpg [ 581.29 KIB | Viewed 975 times ]


Last edited by G-Whiz on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:01 am 
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Between the cap-nuts for the valve cover missing and the hose for the pcv, looks fine to me.

That's just part of the anti-rusting option from some dealers you might get after they work on your car.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:06 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
3 guesses:
(1) cam seal blow out?
(2) missing head bolt?
(3) oil restrictor missing from cavity between block and head?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:15 pm 
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Breather tube is missing on the valve cover.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:37 pm 
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where's the dip stick?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:24 pm 
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suzukitom wrote:
3 guesses:
(1) cam seal blow out?
(2) missing head bolt?
(3) oil restrictor missing from cavity between block and head?


We have a winner!
That sir, is correct. :)

(Sorry for the misleading first picture. By the time I took it, the vent tube and valve cover cap nuts had already been removed by CellDamage)

I guessed CellDamage lost either the front crank or the front cam seal, but I was leaning more toward the cam. I think either one would have totally saturated the timing belt with oil, flinging small droplets out around the gap between the top on the timing belt cover and the end of the valve cover where it then coated everything (hoses, harnesses, alternator & belt) all the way over to the wheel well where you can see the road grime accumulating on the paint in the first picture. The amount of grime at the wheel well was nothing in comparison to what was coating the alternator... it was nasty bad there, for sure!

You should have seen the look on the kid's face when I told him I thought it could be the cam seal, pulled the valve cover up and out of the way and then pointed to what he missed...
With a totally stunned look on his face he then told me he had replaced the cam seal and put a new valve cover gasket kit in prior to having the oil leak (Doh!!!).
He said that after it started to loose oil, he realized it also had oil in the cooling system, that oil was being ingested down the throttle body via the PVC vent tube, and that the motor was overheating like the radiator was plugged or the water pump was failing.

At some point after the leak started, CellDamage also said he re-checked the valve cover gaskets but assumed that nothing could have gone haywire with the cam seal. Even though he had installed a new seal, he didn't visually check between the end of the head and the cam sprocket or pop the cam bearing cap off to make sure it was still seated properly when he removed the valve cover for his re-check.

I popped the front cam bearing cap out, snapped the following picture for this post (showing the cam seal exactly where we found it), slid the seal back into the recess in the head (like it's going to do any good now), put the front bearing cap back in place over the top of the seal, and bolted it down. Here, the white arrows point to the seal (for those of you who haven't seen this part of the motor yet) & the red arrows point to the recess in the end of the head (and bearing cap) where the seal should have been sitting. With no seal in place, the oil coming out of the gap between the cam and the aluminum cam bearing surface was free to flow out the opening where the cam passed through:
Attachment:
Oil seal popped out 2015-11-29_14 28 20.jpg
Oil seal popped out 2015-11-29_14 28 20.jpg [ 528.23 KIB | Viewed 894 times ]


My fellow Swifters,
If work is done on your car and suddenly something starts to go sideways, get out of your car, re-check everything, and if nothing seems amiss, get onto this and/or the GeoMetroForum, and research! Post DETAILED information about your situation and include pictures if possible. Someone going to respond (well, usually) with something you may not have even considered. Case in point was suzukitom's second guess (head bolt! Well, given the water in the oil, it could have been the root cause in a different situation).
Better to sideline your ride than find yourself in CellDamage's shoes.

"But wait! There's more!!"
Time to put your thinking caps on again.
Given the new information that CellDamage revealed, I've been running a scenario through my head that, starting with the oil leak, resulted in oil being ingested down the throttle body - and a rod or main bearing knock in the block.
I have an Idea of how this set of cascading failures all played out but first, I want to invite the "Grizzled Veterans" on this forum to chime in with their own theories on the cause and affect at each stage - and what the kid can expect to see when he pops the head and the oil pan off.

I'm looking forward to your responses and with that, all I have left to say is...
Gentlemen, start your engines!
:twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:54 am 
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For some reason I seem to like your son's attempts to fix the car.
The poor guy has received a pretty harsh moniker, and if I were him, I'd have a few words with the guy who tries to make it stick.
But I'll hammer that into you later.

Oil leaks are easy to diagnose.
Usually oil gets on the exhaust and it smells.
So your nose gets a good whiff.
Once you smell one, you never forget it.

Your son probably smelled the oil and tried to fix it himself.
Unfortunately, you weren't around to guide him correctly, although you were there to point out the seal failure...too late.

Rather than head out into the ozone trying to imagine the cascade of events which led to the engine failure, put your energy into helping the young man build a decent unit.
One of the things you can overcome is the
"with limited funds available"
scenario which dooms many projects.

Looking at that engine, it doesn't have very many hours on it and is pretty clean.
The oil, however is the cheapest you can buy.
Why?
Because it will leak out, right?
Here we have created a self-destruct scenario.
If we have a different attitude, we can overcome that damn "oh, I'm so poor" crutch which so many members have.

Budget the necessary funds to obtain the necessary parts.
No limit, no less.
These engines are extremely simple.
Build it carefully and use all the necessary parts to do it right.
Then you don't have to worry about oil leaks and can feed it pure synthetic.
What is the result?
Many years of trouble free operation.

Your son made a great attempt to fix the car. He learned his lesson not to ignore a leak.
It is too bad you can't show him the right way to fix it so you two spend more time on the couch drinking beers and laughing at those of us who don't know what the inside of an engine looks like.

Don't get me wrong.
You're a great guy and you've helped a lot of people here.
You've got some great threads.
The A/C ones are classics in case new people are reading.

But when it comes to your son, you might want to encourage him a bit.
There are a lot of parts still useful under that hood.
If you two work TOGETHER, imagine what a great powerplant you could produce.

If he decides to go that route, I hope you guys start a thread so we can watch and learn.
Give us a heads up on all the new parts you buy, what they cost, how they are put together inside the engine, and what a great ride you have created (first fire up video).
We are never too old to learn.
And it will be educational for the group who says,
"I bought it for $200 and only want to spend $200 to get it running in tip top shape".
Hint: it can't be done.

And kindly stop calling him that crazy name.
What son would want his father to call him that?
The way I learned it in school was that each generation was an IMPROVEMENT over the last.
It is just wrong on so many levels.

Now that I've put the hammer down, on to more pleasant topics:

How's the new roof holding up?

Best Regards


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:30 am 
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re:
Quote:
The poor guy has received a pretty harsh moniker


pacapo, I always thought the moniker 'Cell Damage' was just an innocent reference to a classic Xbox car wars game.

latest variant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWnY5tlrusI

As to what to find during the engine teardown, the chronic loss of oil pressure and low oil levels may reveal excess clearances in engine bottom end components.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:43 am 
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suzukitom wrote:
re:
Quote:
The poor guy has received a pretty harsh moniker


pacapo, I always thought the moniker 'Cell Damage' was just an innocent reference to a classic Xbox car wars game.

latest variant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWnY5tlrusI

As to what to find during the engine teardown, the chronic loss of oil pressure and low oil levels may reveal excess clearances in engine bottom end components.



I didn't pick his moniker.
The kid did... when he registered on the forum, and suzukitom, you probably have the correct reason for the kid's choice of aliases. CellDamage never explained his choice, and I never asked what possessed him to pick that name.

The next stop for Tie will have to be at his dad's house (FYI, I'm married to his mother) where the two of them can work inside a garage since I don't have one, and this is the worst time of the year to take on a project of this magnitude in the great outdoors of the Pacific NW.

I've started this thread here in hopes bringing about a deeper understanding of our specific motor to the forum members at large: It's not about the restoration or replacement of the motor. To enrich the community as a whole, I'm inviting the more seasoned members to share their thoughts (and experiences). It's not up here just so I can throw my own theories out there and call it a day. I want it to be a brain teaser for the members and exercise in learning how to diagnose at least some of the symptoms we "shade tree mechanics" will encounter in the future.

CellDamage & I are well aware of how tough these little G10s are: http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=43561.
We are among its biggest fans, and for good reason. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:04 am 
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Fair enough.
I'm not familiar with the xBox game series, so that explains the discrepancy.
It is nice to know it isn't another dad bashing his son.
Cell Damage it is.

So what are the sequences which occur when our engines are neglected in the oil category?

You have an oil leak.
Oil is one of the forms of coolant for the engine.
The oil level goes down, the cooling capacity of the engine decreases.
Now, heat builds up and doesn't have a place to go.
Your pistons overheat because that's where the fire is, baby!
The rings lose their temper and no longer 'spring' against the cylinder walls.
This is a key component to the failure.
Now your oil leak becomes internal as well - oil splashes into the combustion chamber and is burned by the fuel/air mixture.
That explains the blue smoke out the exhaust.
Exhaust valves over heat and 'burn'.
Fuel passes through the ring area and into the oil pan, diluting the oil.
The oil is now mixed with gas and doesn't lubricate like it should.
This wreaks havoc on the bearing surfaces: ring, crank, cam.
Eventually the whole mess slows down due to friction.
And man, is it hot.
End of engine.

Heat is the biggest enemy of an engine.
In Physics, we are taught that the ability of an engine to do work is determined by its capacity to remove heat. (Some of the teachers on the forum can explain that in more detail.)
You want to make sure you have no coolant or oil leaks in any engine you want to run reliably.

This is for any engine, not just the little 1.0L.
That is why we have temperature gauges.
Heat kills engines...

I'm guessing your hard work on the roof has payed off, btw.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:04 pm 
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pacapo wrote:
Fair enough.

I'm guessing your hard work on the roof has payed off, btw.


Yes it was well worth the money we paid the contractor to insulate the roof on the top side of the loose fitting tongue-in-groove fir decking. It can still get cold and didn't make quite as much of a difference in the heating/cooling electrical usage as I initially hoping for, but we don't have the freezing downdrafts any more coming off the open beam ceiling and it's no longer the blast furnace in the Summer that it was before getting the 3" thick foam insulation up there.


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