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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:17 pm 
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Location: San Francisco
Well the emissions weren't very close. This is a '91 GT.
Here are the numbers:

HC:
15 mph: 233 (max is 147)
25 mph: 94 (max is 122)

CO:
15 mph: .86 (max is .88)
25 mph: .33 (max is .78)

NO:
15 mph: 2008 (max is 889)
25 mph: 1501 (max is 828)


This is a Federal car. I installed the F 3 computer, new cap and rotor and installed stock air intake.
It has a Cultus intake manifold and Genie header. I'll swap those if anyone thinks they would matter. Regular gas, no additives.

I just ordered a new California approved Walker cat. Can anyone think of anything else I should do to get it in check?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:21 pm 
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If your car has more than 120,000 miles.. that is generally when the catalytic converters fail. A high Nox reading supports this condition.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Thanks for the response. A new cat is my first move. Just wondering if anything else could be a culprit.

The p.o. has some kind of high flow cat on there. Who knows the quality, age or if it was even good enough to pass a smog check when it was new.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:23 pm 
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Cat should get the numbers within spec, but you might want to check compression.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:06 pm 
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Thanks. I'll test compression.
Feels strong but there could be ring or valve issues.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:15 pm 
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Cat should do it. Replace it and if it still doesn't pass, look for other things.

My numbers were similar to yours. New cat and it's very clean, especially for NOx.

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:04 am 
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Cat should be on the porch tonight. I'll weld it in after work and get my re test.

I got an aftermarket cat for my '95 Metro a while back. It was very clean the first smog check. 2 years later it passed but 2 of the numbers were at the exact allowable limit! Obviously time for another cat. I read that the aftermarket cats are loaded up with so few precious active metals that they don't last long at all.

It's a shame when a cat becomes a regular tune up / maintenance item!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:43 am 
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BlackEuropa wrote:
Cat should be on the porch tonight. I'll weld it in after work and get my re test.

I got an aftermarket cat for my '95 Metro a while back. It was very clean the first smog check. 2 years later it passed but 2 of the numbers were at the exact allowable limit! Obviously time for another cat. I read that the aftermarket cats are loaded up with so few precious active metals that they don't last long at all.

It's a shame when a cat becomes a regular tune up / maintenance item!

Good Posting.

Aftermarket cats became inexpensive and didn't have the original amount of catalyst present in the cat when they were sold in the new cars.
California mechanics noticed this at smog check time and complained to the Air Resources Board.
So the State did an investigation
(cut open new catalytic converters and weighed the catalyst)
and now all CARB compliant cats have the original amount of catalyst and should last 70,000 miles on a well tuned car.
That's the history of the two different type catalytic converters.
Somehow, people got the idea that CARB compliant cats were weird and super special to California, when in fact, they are what originally came with the car.
People who don't have their cars sniffed should thank the mechanics in California for pitching a bitch about manufacturers cheaping out on catalyst.

We have a Fed emissions GT (unlike others who have posted in your thread), and it is very common to buy a car from out of State and find it has no catalyst within the converter - especially in a car with many miles on it.

If you bought a California Air Resources Board compliant catalytic converter, then you shouldn't have to fart with it for years.

Don't forget to check your compression.

These cars are really great to drive, burn clean, and are very reliable once you get it dialed in.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:35 am 
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It's interesting... the cat i bought for the '95 Metro was specifically a California cat. Even then they weren't allowed to ship a 48 state cat to California. Plus every 3 cyl Metro I've ever owned was required to go to a Test Only inspection... they actually look at the code on the cat to determine if it's a Cal cat or not. I wonder why that cat was special for California, yet it only lasted about 3 years?

The new one for the GT has a 50,000 mile warranty. I'll believe it when I see it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:17 pm 
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The answer might be in a compression test...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:05 pm 
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So it passed today. I got the new cat through ebay, tigged it in Thurs after work, installed the exhaust Fri and passed Sat. New numbers are:

HC:
15 mph: 44, was 233 (max is 147)
25 mph: 4, was 94 (max is 122)

CO:
15 mph: .05, was .86 (max is .88)
25 mph: .00, was .33 (max is .78)

NO:
15 mph: 612, was 2008 (max is 889)
25 mph: 155, was 1501 (max is 828)

NOx at 15 mph seems a bit high compared to the rest of the numbers but it passed.

So bottom line, as long as your cat is functioning, you can pass california emissions with a Ferderal car running a Cultus intake, 50mm tb and a header.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:28 pm 
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Your numbers are indicative of a new cat but a tired engine.
NOx doesn't lie; she's burning too hot inside the combustion chamber.
Might be a lean condition. How old is the oxygen sensor?
A bad oxygen sensor will not necessarily throw a code.

Putting things right might extend the life of that engine.
At the worst, you now know to save for a rebuild.

The limits, by the way, are almost identical to those for an '87 Turbo Sprint.
Check Wizewun's post of Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:26 pm
and you will see what I mean.

What oil are you running?

Smog test results can be extremely informative to a prospective buyer or a serious DIY'er.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:58 pm 
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Yeah, I didn't change the O2 sensor. No idea on It's age. That's a good plan to replace. I will check compression and post.

I'm running Pennzoil Synthetic 10w30.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:43 am 
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16 posts above the wizewun post (above) gives smog test results for an identical '89 GTi Federal Emissions with a brand new cat.
Check out the thread and compare those results to yours.


The compression results around the time of emissions testing is here:
viewtopic.php?p=378500#p378500
(can you figure out why I didn't do a 'wet test'?)
and the results show an engine working at 90% of its designed capacity, correct?
Even so, the front main seal needs to be changed on that engine, so a good smog test doesn't translate to a perfect engine.
Somewhere on Teamswift there's a fairly decent build thread on that car, and it is by no means 'finished'.

We have several GT/GTi variants. A compression test usually is standard with all the vintage cars we buy.
The results tell if we need to go through the engine or not.
So I'm not asking you to do something that I wouldn't do to one of my engines!

It might be helpful to others if they can see a relationship between your smog test and a compression test.
At the least, it would realign your expectations of what you are driving and what that engine is doing to the cat.
If you didn't have to do 'smog testing', I doubt you'd know there was a problem with your engine.
You've got 2 years before they check it again. That should be plenty of time to bring it back into specs.


Whether your engine is due for a rebuild or not, they are cars which bring out the wild and crazy in even the most conservative drivers.
But I don't need to tell you that...you own one. :thumb2:


Happy motoring.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Yeah, would have been nice to be able to do a compression check before buying. But I had to buy it from a different state. The GTs rarely come up for sale in my area.

The Turbo Sprint in that posting has EGR. That does help a lot with keeping combustion temps down by introducing the inert gas to the charge. But I don't have that.

I'll do a compression check this weekend. I've been busy just getting ready for smog, and getting her road worthy. To get the exhaust out I had to remove the front anti roll bar. Of course mounting bolts snapped instantly. Had to heli coil those. And the rear forward control arm bushings were shot. Clunking on the left side. Of course they were rusted solid onto the shafts. Had to cut and chisel those away. For a primarily California car, some things sure are rusted shut!

Yeah, when I do get to drive it, it's a blast. It's quick and agile. Not quite the acceleration of my LS3 converted RX7 FD (THAT one was fun getting past smog!) but I can park it anywhere and not everyone in a 5.0 mustang wants to drag race me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:15 am 
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I pulled the compression numbers tonight (dry).

1: 229
2: 227
3: 223
4: 228

Seems high. Carbon build up?
Confirmed the numbers with 2 gauges.

New O2 sensor on the way. Sure is running well right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:14 am 
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May I purchase your engine?

Pacapo's just preaching some end-times gospel. Maybe your numbers are a bit off because you've got Cultus pistons?


Go drive it :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:19 am 
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Compression is better than my engine.
Carbon build up would certainly explain it.
Like the man said, drive it...but figure out that NOx problem for longer engine life.
What was your dilution?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:06 am 
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Dilution? Not sure what that means.
I like my Scotch straight up... No dilution. :drunk:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:22 am 
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I think dilution has something to do with the proportion of extra air the test equipment adds to a car's tailpipe emission sample so that the test concentration can be measured in reported in parts per million (ppm). Knowing the dilution factor will provide a way to calculate the undiluted emissions produced by your car.

without diluting the tailpipe air, the test equipment would probably clog up too fast


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:13 am 
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Ahhh, dilution. It's here: https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Bar97_Sec3.pdf

According to California BAR:

3.3.12 Dilution Correction Factor

The EIS shall apply a DCF to the HC, CO, and NO inspection emissions results. The EIS shall look in the VLT for the minimum dilution threshold of CO + CO2. If the minimum dilution threshold does not exist in the VLT, the EIS shall default to 6%, except for vehicles running on CNG or LPG which shall default to 4%. This dilution correction accounts for any exhaust sample dilution, intentional or unintentional, occurring during inspection. The EIS shall calculate the DCF using the following procedure, and shall preselect the formula appropriate to the vehicle's fuel type. If the calculated DCF exceeds 3.0, a default value of 3.0 shall be used. If the DCF falls below 1.0, then a default value of 1.0 shall be used.

a) Calculate "x" using the EIS measurements of CO and CO2:
where [CO2]meas. and [CO]meas. are the final readings of each mode of the inspection (for example, ASM 5015, ASM 2525, 2500 RPM and idle).

b) Calculate the [CO2]adj. using the following formulas.

For Gasoline

[CO2]adj. =[4.644 + 1.88x] / x

c) Calculate the "Dilution Correction Factor" as follows:

Corrected HC = Observed HC x DCF
Corrected CO = Observed CO x DCF
Corrected NO = Humidity Corrected NO x DCF

The DCF shall NOT be applied to the CO2 reading.

The EIS shall apply the DCF to the final emission readings of the inspection to calculate the dilution-adjusted values. The EIS shall then compare the dilution-adjusted values against the vehicle's emission standards to determine the pass/fail or gross polluter status of the vehicle. The dilution-adjusted values shall be the final emission readings for the test vehicle. They shall be printed on the VIR as AMOUNT MEASURED and shall be stored in the test record. The EIS shall record the DCFs on the DCF - Dilution Correction Factor (ASM5015 or TSI-2500 RPM) and DCF - Dilution Correction Factor (ASM2525 or TSI-Idle RPM) fields on the test record. The values recorded shall be the calculated DCF values, not the default values.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:20 pm 
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I didn't mean for everyone to run for their books when I mentioned 'dilution'.
Guess we'd better stick to basics...

Smog tests separate the boys from the men, people who THINK they know how to work on cars from those who actually KNOW what they're doing.
The saying "Test, don't guess" would apply and as our honored member pointed out, is indeed 'Gospel Preaching 101' - aiming to get you an engine which will last a long, long time.

(By the way, compliments on using a synthetic oil in your DOHC.)

You've got high CO and NOx in your OBD I vehicle. That's a problem.
But even a back yard mechanic can solve it!
Start by memorizing this chart from 50 years ago (and which most guys have never seen):


Image

I cannot stress this chart enough.
This is the basis of the 5 gas analysis that is done on your car every 2 years.

Use the numbers you've posted to find your EXACT place on the chart above.
Then use your head to figure out what to inspect.

Let's talk about NOx results.
With compression #'s higher than our Fed Emissions car, you'd expect your engine to burn CLEANER and have LOWER numbers than I posted.
That didn't happen.
(You have great engine compression numbers, but there is still something wrong with the system.)
Since we are talking about a Federal Emissions car, there's no EGR to blame.
So pay attention to what this Honda mechanic is saying in the first post of this thread
http://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civi ... s-1827227/
in his NOx section.
Not MY words, but his - although I agree with him.
After reading his explanation of NOx readings, two general areas pop up which would explain your test results.

You could have a timing issue - common in our DOHC engines. How is this possible if the smog tech verified your timing? (Easy to explain.)
You could have a fuel issue - a 'lean burn' as the Honda mechanic mentioned.

(or both)

Several people got thrown for a loop upon entering the California Smog Check System.
87 Octane is one, and my hat is off to him.
He took the time to learn what was happening under the hood, rolled up his sleeves, and now knows more about the internal combustion process than most.
You're almost there (almost dialed in).

Use the smog test as a TOOL, not as something of which you are afraid.

Until next time...Happy Motoring.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:11 am 
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Nice chart. Thanks for posting.
I'll look at ALL the readings on my report and check it out. It looks like my issue is closed loop low RPM. Higher rpm looks clean.

New O2 sensor in tonight. Not much else I can replace...

Another theory on the net is that headers cool off too fast allowing the cat to cool down, especially at low rpm.
I have the cast iron manifold but would hate to have to swap that every 2 years.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:44 am 
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You have a good attitude and an open mind.
Update this thread if you find anything substantial as we are all willing to learn!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:28 am 
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Quote:
headers cool off too fast allowing the cat to cool down, especially at low rpm


Would using header wrap help raise exhaust temperature before entering the cat?


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