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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Location: Cleveland
Hey guys, I'm installing a 1.0L from a '99 Metro in a buggy project. I'm wondering what needs to be done to correctly remove emissions equipment like the EGR, purge valve, etc. and their respective solenoids, vacuum lines, and wiring. I'd rather not just start hacking away at it before figuring out what's what. I'd like to keep the EGR valve since this engine will be seeing a lot of heavy load and I want it for knock resistance but I'm not sure if it'll still function without some of the other parts.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:29 am 
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Stock computer will force you to leave it all installed. OBD2 is great in some ways, and annoying in others, the ECU checks everything.

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My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:13 am 
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Location: Cleveland
Will it just throw a code if I remove it? I won't be using the factory fuel tank so already I'm missing some of the evap stuff. I also won't have the secondary O2 sensor so that'll throw a code too.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:27 am 
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The lack of a secondary O2 will forsure lock the ECU out of going into closed loop mode. Best advice there, is to stick a high flow 2" cat on the exhaust if possible. The evap stuff, should only make it throw a code.

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My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Location: Cleveland
I thought the downstream O2 was only for measuring catalyst efficiency and the primary O2 did all the fuel trim adjustment? Room is very tight... it'll be pretty hard to fit a cat in there. My total exhaust pipe length to the muffler is only around 4-5ft.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Basically, but it still prevents the computer from going into closed loop.

http://www.hottexhaust.com/search_resul ... amType=ALL

It's pretty stumpy or there is the more expensive metallic substrate edition but it may be easier to fit:

http://www.hottexhaust.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=59955

_________________
My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:48 am 
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Location: Prince George B.C. Canada
Consider putting an older, non-feedback carb on it. That should cure all your woes. Something like a Holly 350CFM 2 barrel. You may have to put smaller jets in it. An adapter plate shouldn't be too difficult to fab.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Location: Brinkworth, UK
Emissions equipment can be disabled in the software, the diagnostic link will always report 'not ready' but if its not for road use then it doesn't matter.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:31 pm 
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another way to go would be to use the electronics from a 89-91 metro. that runs a mechanical/ vacuum advance distributor, no egr, and 1 single wire o2 sensor in the exhaust manifold.

i'd use the entire 89-91 intake manifold and throttle body with the mk2 ecu and engine harness so you'd have all the compatible sensors. you'd lose the crank sensor, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
Ukraine Train wrote:
Will it just throw a code if I remove it? I won't be using the factory fuel tank so already I'm missing some of the evap stuff. I also won't have the secondary O2 sensor so that'll throw a code too.


the rear 02 sensor has no trim authority , it does not contribute to fuel trim
and Image
blue line is rear 02 sensor output voltage , remains at 1.2 volts until the ECM switches on the rear 02 sensor heater
which happens right about 50mph -
the ECM does not even turn on the heater for the rear 02 sensor until you get to 50mph , so if this is an off road buggy ? that never gets to 50 mph ..... there is no problem .

or
choice C
leave the rear 02 sensor connected and do not install it in the exhaust , put the rear 02 sensor somewhere out of the way where it will not get damaged , the ECM will not know the difference
this is an UNknown flaw in the software
if you do this , it will not set a DTC and it will complete all the monitors , all of them . it should not , but it does .


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Location: Regina, SK
The reason is, that the Suzuki OBD2 ECU's attached to these motors do not have a 'catalyst' efficiency measure, so as long as the sensor see's something better than the primary, the ECU will think everything is ok. This was probably done for coding ease, and meant a cheaper brain could be used. Try to do the same on the GF's 98 Bug, and the computer will toss a code after 30 minutes... :lol:

_________________
My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
Rhinoman wrote:
Emissions equipment can be disabled in the software,
the diagnostic link will always report 'not ready' but if its not for road use then it doesn't matter.


Image
although unlabeled TID $01 is the cat converter test - these are not the monitors , this is Mode 6 test results , the monitors will pass or fail based on the results of these tests -

they can not be fraked with .... by mortals like me .

so
i would say NO IT CAN NOT as in my experience it would be true
but ,
can you elaborate on this ?



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
gamefoo21 wrote:
The reason is, that the Suzuki OBD2 ECU's attached to these motors do not have a 'catalyst' efficiency measure, so as long as the sensor see's something better than the primary, the ECU will think everything is ok. This was probably done for coding ease, and meant a cheaper brain could be used. Try to do the same on the GF's 98 Bug, and the computer will toss a code after 30 minutes... :lol:


yes they do
there is a Mode 6 test for Cat efficiency , it is TID$01 and in this screen cap the test value matches minimum limit
for a pass - if the test result were less than the min limit , it would be a fail
there would be a P0420 set on the 2nd fail
if there were no test result , i would say maybe ....
but there is a test result , which means the system DID run a cat efficiency test

and it is not unheard of for Geo Metros to have P0420 s and it is not unheard of for people to replace the cat converters because of it , yet
if you remove the rear 02 sensor and tuck it up under the hood by the RF strut bearing , with the harness connected ,
they will run and pass the test and they will not code .

clearly there is some error in the software - intended or not ....
=============================
on your your GF's VW it is TID$01 but you can force the test using basic settings test 04 046 and you can view test results in measuring block 046
or in generic Mode 6 data with the correct scan tools
==============================

it appears Rhinoman may have the ability to "tweak" the software , which means he can read it very well as well ...
so he can see enhanced data with ????
something i would like to learn more about ....


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Heh, I realize this, I've put the secondary O2 tucked up, hidden, and shielded, but in humid/wet/rainy weather, it would toss codes, so I ended up welding in a bung and just running the sensor properly...

The software requires enough of a difference, but it doesn't have a floor, just a ceiling. No checking for over-efficiency, if you will.

As for the Veedub... VCDS is a very very handy tool, it's amazing just how much you can monitor on her car, except sometimes the computer can be more hassle than a help. :lol:

_________________
My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Brinkworth, UK
mwebb wrote:
it appears Rhinoman may have the ability to "tweak" the software , which means he can read it very well as well ...
so he can see enhanced data with ????
something i would like to learn more about .... [/color]


These later ECUs have a flash based processor (68HC916) which can be read and written using either a Debugger/Programmer or through the serial port. So far I have worked mainly on the Baleno and Jimny ECUs but I've also had a poke around the 1ltr ECU. The 1.3 Swift ECU is very similar to the Jimny.
The 'simple' method of eliminating the emissions stuff is to look for the tests that determine when it should be activated and modify the parameters, so the rear O2 sensor speed test could be changed from 50mph to 120mph or similar. That way the conditions for the rear O2 sensor activation are never met, the downside is that the OBD2 tests are never done and the diagnostics will always read 'not ready' .
As yet I haven't written any software for flashing via the serial port although I do know the protocol. TunerPro can be used to easily modify the binary if an xdf definition is available, for that I need the binary image from the 1.3 and some details of the hardware.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:10 am
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
does "tuner pro" communicate through the DLC or must it be connected another way to the ECM
do you have ENhanced software for it or does Tuner pro provide enhanced data for the
Geo Metro G10 OBD2 applications ?



Rhinoman wrote:
mwebb wrote:
it appears Rhinoman may have the ability to "tweak" the software , which means he can read it very well as well ...
so he can see enhanced data with ????
something i would like to learn more about .... [/color]


These later ECUs have a flash based processor (68HC916) which can be read and written using either a Debugger/Programmer or through the serial port. So far I have worked mainly on the Baleno and Jimny ECUs but I've also had a poke around the 1ltr ECU. The 1.3 Swift ECU is very similar to the Jimny.
The 'simple' method of eliminating the emissions stuff is to look for the tests that determine when it should be activated and modify the parameters, so the rear O2 sensor speed test could be changed from 50mph to 120mph or similar. That way the conditions for the rear O2 sensor activation are never met, the downside is that the OBD2 tests are never done and the diagnostics will always read 'not ready' .
As yet I haven't written any software for flashing via the serial port although I do know the protocol. TunerPro can be used to easily modify the binary if an xdf definition is available, for that I need the binary image from the 1.3 and some details of the hardware.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:22 am 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
the testing has either a min or a max value
if the test results are below then min value limit or above the max value limit
the test fails
the test result can be equal to the limit for a pass .

MOST Mode 6 or Mode 5 testing has a min OR a MAX value but not both , some more advanced systems do have Mode 6 tests that DO have both Min and MAX values

some tests for the same component may have a min value limit while other tests have a max value limit so the testing can bracket the components values and the ECM can know a
"floor and a ceiling" it depends on how the programming is designed

there are conditions designed into the programming , when the conditions are met , the test is enabled and it runs
if the conditions to run the test are never met , the test never runs
=======================================
the VCDS scan tool is very good ,
there is not that much to see in a 1998 AEG beetle but
in module 01 using MB 032 with MB 015 and 016 you can get a real quick idea of how the system is behaving , at the time .
also watch for low voltage DTCs in module 015 , airbag
those four values must be "good" for the whole system to operate correctly


gamefoo21 wrote:
Heh, I realize this, I've put the secondary O2 tucked up, hidden, and shielded, but in humid/wet/rainy weather, it would toss codes, so I ended up welding in a bung and just running the sensor properly...

The software requires enough of a difference, but it doesn't have a floor, just a ceiling. No checking for over-efficiency, if you will.

As for the Veedub... VCDS is a very very handy tool, it's amazing just how much you can monitor on her car, except sometimes the computer can be more hassle than a help. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:39 am 
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Location: Brinkworth, UK
mwebb wrote:
does "tuner pro" communicate through the DLC or must it be connected another way to the ECM
do you have ENhanced software for it or does Tuner pro provide enhanced data for the
Geo Metro G10 OBD2 applications ?



Tuner Pro allows you to easily modify the binary image, it can't as yet communicate directly to the ECU. I have been sent the Software Development Kit for TunerPro V5 but haven't as yet done any programming. What do you mean by enhanced software? for the ECU?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
enhanced data is a list of all of the Parameter IDs , PIDs that are available to the OEM scan tool
as well as the ability to perform any self tests or actuation's of various things that may be available to the OEM scan tool


Rhinoman wrote:
mwebb wrote:
does "tuner pro" communicate through the DLC or must it be connected another way to the ECM
do you have ENhanced software for it or does Tuner pro provide enhanced data for the
Geo Metro G10 OBD2 applications ?



Tuner Pro allows you to easily modify the binary image, it can't as yet communicate directly to the ECU. I have been sent the Software Development Kit for TunerPro V5 but haven't as yet done any programming. What do you mean by enhanced software? for the ECU?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Location: Brinkworth, UK
mwebb wrote:
enhanced data is a list of all of the Parameter IDs , PIDs that are available to the OEM scan tool as well as the ability to perform any self tests or actuation's of various things that may be available to the OEM scan tool


The only binary that I have is for a Swift 1.0 Euro3 ECU, I don't know if that uses the same protocol as the Metro. The Swift is KWP2000, the Metro may well use the earlier ISO9141-2. As I said before I've only had a brief look at the binary but TunerPro could be set up to do anything that the OEM tool can do, the key is in deciphering the software in the ECU.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:56 pm 
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Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
the scan tools that i have connect to the 1996 Geo Metro with G10 in obd2
in ISO 9141 2 .
pin 7 at the 16 pin DLC .

which is held between 10 and 12 volts , the ECM or the scan tool toggle it down ... kinda like Morse code which shows up as serial data a train of digital signals . and either one sees and reads what the other does . if all is working properly .

now i can record endless serial data at pin 7 using Pico 6 , it will be in analogue , you can see the scan tool ping the ECM and the ECM will reply , to see which is which look at the ground , the scan tool and the ECM will have a different ground voltage drop
the first one to communicate is the scan tool .

but i do not know what good that would be , it is good to confirm Pin 7 is not held hi or low and to know that the ECM can and will respond to the scan tool request
so if i can get that far and the scan tool does not communicate then the ECM is KAKA . which is very very rare .

so where do you get the "binary" from if not the DLC ?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:37 am 
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Location: Brinkworth, UK
The binary was pulled directly from the processor using the Background Debug port. If you have a 1996 then you may have a different processor to the 1999 we were originally talking about, some of the early Suzuki ECUs are quite dumb and can't be reflashed. The link below takes you to a page that will give you some idea of how to connect to the processor:

http://rhinopower.activeboard.com/index ... D=35791357

I have a USB logic analyser with a built in serial protocol interpreter for logging data between the scan tool and the ECU.
I will post up some more details some time over the next couple of days, I have been quite busy lately with job interviews.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:04 am 
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Location: Nevada
I also have a buggy, with a 00 metro engine in it. I'm not running the 2nd o2 sensor. It runs good, but it may be a bit rich at times. I'd really like it to run in closed loop, if its not now. Should I wire in that 2nd o2 sensor?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:48 am 
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I don't think that the second O2 sensor affects closed loop operation, it is just there to test the functionality of the cat.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:09 am 
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We have now cracked the method for downloading the code through the diagnostic port, we are now working on the next stage which is reflashing. The difficult part is done which is uploading a kernel to the processor and getting it to execute.


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