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 Post subject: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:14 am 
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Location: Portage La Prairie, Manitoba,Canada
Okay to start this off and give u guys a bit of a background on what's shakin, I ice race a 99 swift in Manitoba in the studded class. I started off the first year with a stock car completely, now with year number two done I have a bored tb,SRD header,and one of suprf1ys special cams! And wow did that wake up this little engine! Now to prepare for year number three I want to make it a full blown race motor. I am looking to go to high compression on this thing and really make some serious power, I would love to get close to 150hp without a turbo! Any ideas on how much compression this little guy can take with stock rods? I would love to run 12:1 on race gas! Any opinions or experience on how to get this 16valve really hoppin would be much appreciated! Thanks

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:34 am 
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Whatever you do please keep us posted. I'm very interested even though I ditched the 1.3 in favor of more cubic inches.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:53 am 
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You won't be able to rev that thing high enough to see 150 hp. If you can swap a GT head on it, with a Cultus intake, that will help a lot. If not, some GT rods, Cultus pistons, and you'll probably be in the 12-1 area with a stock head. Stock GT pistons will give you 10.6-1, so with a little head milling, 11-1 would be easy. If you can wotk a megasquirt into your budget, do it. The stock computer won't work well with your mods, and you will probably want more timing. I don't have a cam suitable for that RPM, but could probably put something together.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:11 am 
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That motor is used extensively in Indian swift racing, have had two guys pm me quite a bit over car setup over the last few years and I have sent both of them your way Mike, both were running huge cams but didn't have the rpm to make the most of it, they don't seem to be able to run the bottom end past 7k reliably, a sensible cam matched to the 4-7k rev range is more suitable when using the horrible stock gear ratio's.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:16 am 
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Any idea what the problem is past 7k? I would have thought that head with the little valve springs and goofy exhaust rockers would be the limiting factor, especially once you run enough cam to make power up there.
I've corresponded with a bunch of those racers from India, never with much success. It almost always goes the same way. They want my recommendation, disagree with it, ask for some crazy lift and duration numbers, then complain about the cost :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:25 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
You won't be able to rev that thing high enough to see 150 hp. If you can swap a GT head on it, with a Cultus intake, that will help a lot. If not, some GT rods, Cultus pistons, and you'll probably be in the 12-1 area with a stock head. Stock GT pistons will give you 10.6-1, so with a little head milling, 11-1 would be easy. If you can wotk a megasquirt into your budget, do it. The stock computer won't work well with your mods, and you will probably want more timing. I don't have a cam suitable for that RPM, but could probably put something together.


Sorry but I am not familiar with a mega squirt ? Can u explain a bit? And I would be interested in a gt head or even a whole motor! Got any leads on one?

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:32 am 
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Also another question I have is I was thinking of punching the block out to get some more cc's. Is this favorable and how much can I go?

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:07 am 
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this is a megasquirt stand alone engine management controller.
Image

you assemble it (or buy one already built) and configure it for your specific use. it gives you full control of injection and ignition and you program it with a laptop. the software is largely freeware but you can buy an inexpensive license for the tuning application called 'tuner studio.' i use a little acer netbook that is set up with the megasquirt software as a supervisory computer that i mounted in the car. mine also runs full gps and serves as a 'jukebox' with mp3 music for my stereo system.
Image

get ready to read. :lol:

http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm

http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html#ms2

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/index.php

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46400

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:29 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
I've corresponded with a bunch of those racers from India, never with much success. It almost always goes the same way. They want my recommendation, disagree with it, ask for some crazy lift and duration numbers, then complain about the cost :lol:

Yeah similar experience, it's Indian logic, hey how can 1.2 billion people be wrong? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:04 am 
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Mile High Racing wrote:
Also another question I have is I was thinking of punching the block out to get some more cc's. Is this favorable and how much can I go?


Not worth it.

I have some DOHC stuff in the shop. When you've decided which way to go, I might have what you need.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:46 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Mile High Racing wrote:
Also another question I have is I was thinking of punching the block out to get some more cc's. Is this favorable and how much can I go?


Not worth it.

I have some DOHC stuff in the shop. When you've decided which way to go, I might have what you need.


If I went with the dohc build on my 16 valve block I would still need the gt harness to run the engine right? Or would i be better off making it a carb model with Dual webbers? I know to make the power I want I would be better off with a dohc for sure!

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:57 pm 
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You would still need the ECU to run the distributor, unless you use an early 8V vac advance distributor. I think I have one :lol:

Carbs are easy, and for power there's really no difference. The megasquirt is the best option for power and drivability, if you can afford and tune it.
You should see if you can find a complete GT motor locally.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:29 am 
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Location: ontario
Mile high;you must race with Jordan Sharples?

I've been sharing my ice race experience with him for a couple of years,if I remember correctly your rules don't allow engine swaps but can add a turbo?.

If thats correct I would leave the engine stock internally and add a SMALL turbo to add mid range power and keep lag to a minimum,you'll easily reach your hp target for pennies on the dollar compared to going the big compression,cams,head work more revs route.

I agree with Dattman,using the stock trans(you should be using the 4.39 trans not the 4.10 imo)means wide ratio's,your not going to like what happens powerwise when you max out 2nd and pop it in 3rd and especially 4th as I think you guys occasionally have some long straights.

I suspect your on their new street stud tire class as well,150hp will be HARD to use in all but the best conditions with fwd.For reference my geo has approx 150hp,much lighter and even with awd I can spin all 4 in 3rd down our straight most days.My car tops out at over 130kph at 12,000 in 3rd.I've raced fwd street studs with both the geo and a '91 civic hatch and the civic was able to put power down far better than the geo.I ran the geo last year with a twin cam swap,Mikes cams,bored TB and a chip,more than enough power and that would be maybe 115hp?.

Not trying to shoot you down at all,we all want high comp engines that rev to the moon but the reality is their effectiveness/enjoyment is often shortlived or not as fast under most circumstances as just a lightly breathed on engine.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:14 pm 
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L8 APEXR wrote:
Mile high;you must race with Jordan Sharples?

I've been sharing my ice race experience with him for a couple of years,if I remember correctly your rules don't allow engine swaps but can add a turbo?.

If thats correct I would leave the engine stock internally and add a SMALL turbo to add mid range power and keep lag to a minimum,you'll easily reach your hp target for pennies on the dollar compared to going the big compression,cams,head work more revs route.

I agree with Dattman,using the stock trans(you should be using the 4.39 trans not the 4.10 imo)means wide ratio's,your not going to like what happens powerwise when you max out 2nd and pop it in 3rd and especially 4th as I think you guys occasionally have some long straights.

I suspect your on their new street stud tire class as well,150hp will be HARD to use in all but the best conditions with fwd.For reference my geo has approx 150hp,much lighter and even with awd I can spin all 4 in 3rd down our straight most days.My car tops out at over 130kph at 12,000 in 3rd.I've raced fwd street studs with both the geo and a '91 civic hatch and the civic was able to put power down far better than the geo.I ran the geo last year with a twin cam swap,Mikes cams,bored TB and a chip,more than enough power and that would be maybe 115hp?.

Not trying to shoot you down at all,we all want high comp engines that rev to the moon but the reality is their effectiveness/enjoyment is often shortlived or not as fast under most circumstances as just a lightly breathed on engine.

Yes I do race with Jordan Sharples and I have thought about using a turbo also but our rules state that point deductions will apply when supercharges or turbos are ran! That's why I need to go the high comp route. I am not running the stock tranny also, I am running a gt tranny which made a huge difference and I think a close ratio shift kit would make an even better car ten fold!
I do agree with u that 150hp would be too much for street stud class, I have around 100 hp right now and finished second overall this year! But next year it sounds like we are going to a really aggressive stud and it's gonna be a horsepower game! Maybe the swift needs a big block Chevy! :D I totally agree with u that the high comp route is very risky and costly, but I don't know what else to do. And I don't wanna conform and go with a Honda like everyone else! :roll: thanks for ur advice!

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Location: ontario
Can you swap in the gt engine?,if not how about getting a swift gt that came with the twin cam engine as for sure that would be legal,or go with the turbo 3 cylinder as Mike has the know how to make those perform above the gt engine I believe.The 3 cylinder will be a little lighter perhaps but thats good as it gives you options on ballast amounts and locations.
I'm in pretty regular contact with Jordan and I haven't heard anything about a more aggressive stud,we are looking at going to something above our current SS tire and a little below the menards grip wise to replace the menard class(keeping SS as is).Since my car was banned from the class I volunteered to be a tire tester next year,try and find something that grips ok and lasts.I've been pushing for a switch from our spec SS tire(hankook I-pikes)to the saliuns but I don't think its going to happen.

I've watched a few of Jordans vids,which car are you?.Which car won the class?.I have some tricks that work for the SS fwd class,I never really got the Geo to work that well(by well I mean win,top 3 car for sure but I'm not happy unless I'm leading) in fwd even though on paper it should be better than the civics-was ss overall(out of about 60 cars) and ss fwd class(out of about 25 cars) champ in a civic.

If you watch any of my vids you'll see our track is more about handling and putting power down than hp,some of the tracks you guys come up have LOOONG straights.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:10 pm 
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L8 APEXR wrote:
Can you swap in the gt engine?,if not how about getting a swift gt that came with the twin cam engine as for sure that would be legal,or go with the turbo 3 cylinder as Mike has the know how to make those perform above the gt engine I believe.The 3 cylinder will be a little lighter perhaps but thats good as it gives you options on ballast amounts and locations.
I'm in pretty regular contact with Jordan and I haven't heard anything about a more aggressive stud,we are looking at going to something above our current SS tire and a little below the menards grip wise to replace the menard class(keeping SS as is).Since my car was banned from the class I volunteered to be a tire tester next year,try and find something that grips ok and lasts.I've been pushing for a switch from our spec SS tire(hankook I-pikes)to the saliuns but I don't think its going to happen.

I've watched a few of Jordans vids,which car are you?.Which car won the class?.I have some tricks that work for the SS fwd class,I never really got the Geo to work that well(by well I mean win,top 3 car for sure but I'm not happy unless I'm leading) in fwd even though on paper it should be better than the civics-was ss overall(out of about 60 cars) and ss fwd class(out of about 25 cars) champ in a civic.

If you watch any of my vids you'll see our track is more about handling and putting power down than hp,some of the tracks you guys come up have LOOONG straights.


I can swap a gt motor into the car, my teammate already did the swap in his ice racer and loves it! The only problem is I cannot find a gt motor anywhere! If I was to turbo my SOHC 16 valve what would be a good setup for turbo size? I would love to find a good quality kit......any ideas? I have seen the gt turbo kit on SRD's website! Would a gt kit even work on my SOHC?
I am the dark green 1999 swift in the vids, my car has lime green racing stripes and it is number 23! If I am not mistaken u borrowed my brake resoirvor cap from my 2001 parts car! :D

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:14 pm 
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if you're looking at the suzukird site for a turbo kit, you're looking at the wrong site. :-P

http://www.turbotuningturbinetech.com/

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

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My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Location: ontario
I can swap a gt motor into the car, my teammate already did the swap in his ice racer and loves it! The only problem is I cannot find a gt motor anywhere! If I was to turbo my SOHC 16 valve what would be a good setup for turbo size? I would love to find a good quality kit......any ideas? I have seen the gt turbo kit on SRD's website! Would a gt kit even work on my SOHC?
I am the dark green 1999 swift in the vids, my car has lime green racing stripes and it is number 23! If I am not mistaken u borrowed my brake resoirvor cap from my 2001 parts car! :D

Haha that reminds me to go looking for a another cap!. :)

If your handy buying a bolt on turbo kit is pretty pricey,building the exhaust manifold and piping is really not much money and considering you don't really need to go ragged edge power production a used turbo in good condition from the right vehicle will be fine.I'd look at something that will make boost quickly,for the ice you need as linear a power delivery as possible to not blow away the tires when boost comes on.I'm thinking the little KKK turbo's from a VW might work..

You have a whole year to build parts and get it set-up,do you road race with Jordan as well?.Jordan was talking about flying me in for road race weekend this summer to spend some time helping with car set-up.Not sure if I can help or not but I'm in for a weekend at the track no problem. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:41 pm 
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L8 APEXR wrote:
I can swap a gt motor into the car, my teammate already did the swap in his ice racer and loves it! The only problem is I cannot find a gt motor anywhere! If I was to turbo my SOHC 16 valve what would be a good setup for turbo size? I would love to find a good quality kit......any ideas? I have seen the gt turbo kit on SRD's website! Would a gt kit even work on my SOHC?
I am the dark green 1999 swift in the vids, my car has lime green racing stripes and it is number 23! If I am not mistaken u borrowed my brake resoirvor cap from my 2001 parts car! :D

Haha that reminds me to go looking for a another cap!. :)

If your handy buying a bolt on turbo kit is pretty pricey,building the exhaust manifold and piping is really not much money and considering you don't really need to go ragged edge power production a used turbo in good condition from the right vehicle will be fine.I'd look at something that will make boost quickly,for the ice you need as linear a power delivery as possible to not blow away the tires when boost comes on.I'm thinking the little KKK turbo's from a VW might work..

You have a whole year to build parts and get it set-up,do you road race with Jordan as well?.Jordan was talking about flying me in for road race weekend this summer to spend some time helping with car set-up.Not sure if I can help or not but I'm in for a weekend at the track no problem. :wink:

I was looking at getting this kit http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Custom-Race-T3T4 ... 3546974545
I do not road race at all but help out with setup and such whenever i am available. As far as turbo's go... i concider myself to be pretty handy and if i have the basic components can make most stuff work.

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Location: ontario
I wouldn't do it this way,I'd buy a good condition oem turbo not a chinese deal like that(that one is likely way to big for a 1300) and pc together what you actually need.For a turbo exhaust manifold I use plumbing fittings,black iron or whatever they call them(weld els are pricey) and depending on wether you go with a log style(simple to make,doesn't flow as well)or ram horn(much better flow,more pcs to make it=more $$)the costs aren't too bad.About $60 will easily do a log,maybe a little over a hundred for a rams horn.
I'd buy an e-bay intercooler kit to get the i/c,tubing and silicon fittings on the cheap as you'll need to fit all the tubes anyways.Save the money for a decent fuel injection control and tuning.

Maybe if Jordan asked me out this summer we'll meet face to face,Jordan asked if I'd like to go to the runoffs with them this fall and I'm for that for sure. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:21 am 
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Okay so this is what I have decided..... I will not be going with a turbo engine since I get deducted 5 points per race :cry: . Instead I will be trying to free up as many ponies in my motor as I can! I wanna run around 12:1 comp for sure. I will be adding a lightweight flywheel and under drive pulley. As far as internals I think I am gonna keep them stock other than some gt or high comp pistons. I don't really think I have the money to go crazy and throw on a dohc head and try to make some sort of fuel and ignition system work! One big question I have is I wanna for sure run some sort of standalone ecu BUT I am no "geek" by any means and I need to know how hard they are to setup? I would prefer to buy one already made so it more like a plug and play as much as possible. Thanks in advance, anyone feel free to chime in and give there advice!

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Send an email to http://www.mtmotorsport.ca/

If you can, call and ask for Matt. They should be able to fix you up with a megasquirt.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:59 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
Send an email to http://www.mtmotorsport.ca/

If you can, call and ask for Matt. They should be able to fix you up with a megasquirt.


Thanx Mike! I will for sure contact him!! Sent u a pm about parts!

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 pm 
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If your consistant top 3..turbo torque would solidify it as a consistant winner...worth the points loss? I dunno..id take that gamble..especially with a properly sized twin scroll..


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 Post subject: Re: 16 valve race motor
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Or a m62 eaton :wink: ..i know a guy with roots blown suzuki experiance!..it would dominate...


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