TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:38 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
Hello everybody, I bought a 1997 Firefly a few months ago and the guy said it was having problems "Hot starting".

Ive scoured these boards for clues and fixes and it seems there's a few people who still cant figure it out, me being one of them.

For the first few weeks, it would fire up 100% of the time, drive 100% correct, but when you shut it off, it wouldn't restart for an hour or two. Exact same symptoms as others here. So I would just let it idle for hours upon end (I deliver pizza, cant shut it off with intent of refiring it when food is ready) and that worked fine for a few days but then it just stalled one me idling. Ok. So I wait it out and fire it up, and just as soon as I get home it dies while driving. Try to fire it up later to no avail. Try again an hour or two again after and it fires up. I drive it to a local shop to do an OBDII scan and it dies on the way there with no codes thrown besides 4 seatbelt/airbag codes. We disconnected the battery and grounded out the memory hoping to reset the memory. It fired up and I made it halfway home before it died again (1.5km). We pushed it home and thats where she sits, it wont fire up.

Just reading the forums, I've found it could be A NUMBER of things. CPS, Temp sensors, fuel pump, injectors, compression, etc etc. I need help diagnosing exactly what it is because this car needs to get on the road.

The guy I bought it off rebuilt the transmission, and used orange silicone (No gasket i believe, will check into it for sure) on the oil pan. The fuel pump read 75 PSI with key on, and is flooding tons of fuel to the injectors, so thats fine. Compression read about 135PSI cold all across the board (Which I think is fine, people say 150 is dead engine, others day 90 is dead engine). We have spark, so it's not fuel delivery problems but what I believe is fuel control. Which could be injectors, sensors, ECM...

How do I go about testing and narrowing down where my problem is? There has to be diagnostic tests and sensors shorts I can use to determine where my problem is and how to fix/bypass/replace it, right?

any help would be appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Vancouver, WA
75 psi????? in a TBI engine? spec is 23-31 engine off and 13-20 psi at idle.

double check to make sure there is no oil pan gasket. pull a plug and check for spark. i dont know about the distributor models very well but an intermittant stall, no start like this is USUALLY an ignition issue. pickup in the distributor, ignition module, etc.

_________________
98 swift 1.6 16v swap
03 cobra bolt ons
97 3000gt vr4 e85, high comp, bolt ons
too many others to list


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
VR4 wrote:
75 psi????? in a TBI engine? spec is 23-31 engine off and 13-20 psi at idle.

double check to make sure there is no oil pan gasket. pull a plug and check for spark. i dont know about the distributor models very well but an intermittant stall, no start like this is USUALLY an ignition issue. pickup in the distributor, ignition module, etc.


yep 75 PSI off the fuel inlet hose

Image

dont know why its so high

Im pretty sure I have spark, it will fire up no problem with some fuel or spray into the TB. I went over the fuses when it first wouldnt fire because Ive had EFI fuses go on shorted wires before (geo tracker). Will check for a gasket when the weather clears up


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
I gave the injector test a whirl, I had no idea what to test but this is what I came up with.

I grounded off the test light, and poked tiny holes VIA test light into the 2 black wires that go directly into the injector...

Image

Bottom one lit me up, but the top one didnt.



Same test right out of the plug. Key on engine off.

Image

Image


so from my understanding the injector is fine, but something within the wiring or sensors isn't functioning? where do I diagnose from here??


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
upon further investigation, lack of 12v power to these wires identifies the injector coil being stuck open, thus the injected IS the problem? anyway I can tap it or anything to unstick it? new injector? injector cleaner?????????

[edit] or wait, the injector isnt even connected to the wires i tested while testing. should everything be hooked up properly and I just sneak the tester in to see if the coil is stuck or not?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:14 am
Posts: 1897
Location: Prince George B.C. Canada
You might want to check out this thread before you go too far. Start near the bottom of page 1.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=50388&start=25


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
hmm, so I may have something up with my fuel control system? how would that effect why the injectors not spraying?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:14 am
Posts: 1897
Location: Prince George B.C. Canada
sillydilly wrote:
The fuel pump read 75 PSI with key on, and is flooding tons of fuel to the injectors, so thats fine.


My mistake, I thought you had fuel at the injector.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the 2 wires to the injector are positive and negative so you're testing for power and getting none by hooking ground to ground on the one wire and getting voltage on the other when going to ground. Doesn't sound lke a problem there. If the second wire is a trip wire telling the injector when and how long to fire, you'll only get a reading when it is actually injecting so the motor must be running or at least cranking to get any reading. If the system is over pressurized the computer may shut down the injector, not allowing it to fire. I think I'm correct but someone could speak up if this isn't valid info.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:37 am
Posts: 1059
Location: Vancouver, Best Cannabis
first of all you never described your engine size.
second, buy the correct set of factory service manuals, they are worth it more so than getting help here on the boards. it's better to do all you can first and then use the community for opinions after all your bases are covered.
make the 'engine controls' section your required reading. go through the troubleshooting steps for your symptom, you have all the tools already such as your DMM and your code scanner. it's probably just one sensor that's on its way out. better to order it today and get it in 14 days rather than delay here by throwing darts.

_________________
Silver 2000 Firefly 4DR; 16V SOHC, 3 to 5 speed swap, install PS and AC, remote and auto start, PL, PW, kill and start switch, Valentine 1, behind-bumper CAI, 55MM TB with coolant-bypass, polyurethane-fill engine/shifter mounts, modified to short shifter, upgraded electrical system, CS130 alternator, 90/160W headlights + relay mod, ceramic H4 plug/harness
To do: finish stereo, 4000K H4 HIDs, short block replacement
'sponsored' by Captain Crunch, Lordco, Felpro, Permatex, Royal Purple


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Vancouver, WA
The testing of the wires to the injector is correct. One side is power and the other is ground pulsed by the ecu. Get a noid light and put it in place of the injector. It should flash while cranking.

Apply 12v to one side of the injector and momentary ground to the other. It should click. if theres fuel pressure behind it it should spray.

_________________
98 swift 1.6 16v swap
03 cobra bolt ons
97 3000gt vr4 e85, high comp, bolt ons
too many others to list


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
ok. I grounded off the test light and I have 12v power to one injector line, and nothing on the 2nd.

during cranking, I get the exact same results. One wire stays lit, other wont light at all.




so no injector signal from ECM?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
alright, couple of silly questions.

1) I said I have 12v on 1 injector wire, and not the other. This test being done by a test light. However when I hooked up the multimeter to it, I was able to read 12v on each. But back to the test light, just the one lit up. Is this possible and why is this doing that?

2) How do I test the injector resistor? I'm obviously not overly familiar with a multimeter. I know where the resistor is I just dont know the proper steps in testing it. I know Im looking for 1.5 ohms tops.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
I pulled out my spare TBI and removed the injector (very horribly might I add) and it sparks and clicks properly with 12v.

Fortunately I read up on the stubborn screws before attempting it on the good car, and I was able to use a impaktdriver succesfully to remove that what I believe is failed injected. I did the same test, 12v to it, and nothing. no spark no click...

Must I do further tests or is it safe to say I need an injector?

Best place to get them?

-my closest junkyard (1hr away) has the identical firefly as me but if I recall the TB and parts were already swiped.
-The spare TBI I have must be off a really old Geo, they dont look anything alike.
-eBay has them as cheap as $50 used, $100 new...
-new parts, from what I read, go as much as $200


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Vancouver, WA
if you apply 12v and ground to the injector and get nothing....shes failed capn

_________________
98 swift 1.6 16v swap
03 cobra bolt ons
97 3000gt vr4 e85, high comp, bolt ons
too many others to list


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 am
Posts: 9
Location: Alberta
hey guys, quick update. Bought a used injector off ebay for about $50, popped her in, and she fired right up. did 500km that day, on and off, not a single problem.

I appreciate all your help and hopefully this thread & pictures will serve to help someone else in the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group