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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:04 am 
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Okay, I've been getting a few different people asking me what to do when their trusty G10t engine has finally worn itself out, usually after 200k kms or so.

Specifically, what can they do when the cylinder bore is out-of-spec, but their turbo pistons are okay?

(Remember, stock turbo G10 pistons in any standard/overbore size can't be purchased from the dealer anymore... it is 15 years since the engine was introduced, after all.)

EDIT: Apparently some pistons are actually available. Check in the 2nd page of this thread for more information.

Well, here are some options:

1. If you want to keep your nice turbo pistons and they're in good shape, get a barely worn G10 block, no need to have the pistons, crank, rods or head. You only need the block. You can use any year, it doesn't matter as long as the cylinder bore is good enough to accept the stock diameter turbo pistons.

- drill and tap the knock sensor bung
- drill the oil return bung and reseat the oil return fitting
--^ these are the only two differences between the NA G10 and the turbo G10 block
- get new bearings
- get new rings
- put it all back together using your old crank, rods and pistons
- now you've got a nice fresh G10t block with all the fixings

The 'new' G10 block shouldn't cost you more than $100. You'll obviously have to pay to get the block transformed from a G10 to a G10t... unless you do it yourself. Same with the machining costs to prep the block.

2. You can get oversized forged turbo pistons from Wiseco in whatever oversize you want. Some folks from the Turbo 3 Haven commisioned them so they're now available to whoever wants to order them. The pistons will cost you around $500US if I remember correctly.

- get the Wiseco pistons and mount them to your original rods
- get new rings
- might as well do the bearings and check out your crank
- bore out your trusty old G10t block
- put everything back together
- now you've got a fresh G10t, but with oversized pistons

3. There's the option floating around to use 75mm Vitara pistons as well (which are likely available for less than $500 for the set). This makes sense since the rods in the G10t engine are the same as in the GTi engine and I believe no swaps of the GTi rods are needed when putting Vitara pistons in a G13 engine. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...)

- get new Vitara pistons and mount them to your original rods
- get new rings
- might as well do the bearings and check out your crank
- bore out your trusty old G10t block
- put everything back together
- now you've got a fresh G10t, but with oversize Vitara pistons instead

4. One last option, similar to the Vitara piston option but a bit more complicated. Go find some oversize NA G10 pistons, and get NA rods and connecting pins.

- get new oversize NA pistons, rods and connecting pins
- get new rings
- do all the other stuff like above
- bore out your G10t block
- put it all back together

The only problem with this is that you'll have a fresh new G10t block, but it'll be a higher compression block than if you used your original turbo pistons. This shouldn't be a problem with proper engine management and good fuel. As an extra precaution, you could get the NA pistons ceramic coated to help with hot spots... or you can do whatever other special coating/treatment to help strengthen them.

Hopefully this helps out those of you with the Mk1/2 turbo engines that're right at the end of their reliable service life and need some help to keep going for another 200k kms. :D


Chris


ps: The NA and turbo cranks are the same (neither one is forged), just in case you've worn out your turbo crank from doing whatever you do to your engine and you need a replacement.

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Last edited by CJDavE on Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:56 am 
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stickied this thread, and passed on some karma points.

as per option 3, some specifics would be good, eg. which sidekick sohc 8V pistons work. I know you do NOT want to use the sohc 16v vitara pistons like those commonly swapped into the g13b (gti) engines for turbocharging, as the valve dimples are in the wrong places.

also mk1 turbo3 heads have the valves located quite differently from the mk2 units (rotated ~90 degrees).

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:27 pm 
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Since I'm rebuilding my Mk1 G10t at this time here is my $.02
2. I talked to Wesico , set of pistons (4) are $425 with rings
3. Vitara pistons have to be machined for us Mk1 T3 guys . Jess does this and sells them for $ 410CDN
4. G10 NA pistons and rod are much weaker and I don't know how long they would last in T3 engine . Has anyone tried this ?
I'm using 5th option when rebuilding Mk1 T3 engine and will post in a few days when I finish and engine is running .


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:12 am 
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Minimum order is 4 pistons. You're looking at approximately $750 Canadian (4
pistons with rings, pins and clips)
Allow 5 weeks for delivery.
and for JE pistons i got quoted under500 with rings and all.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:11 am 
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Quote:
G10 NA pistons and rod are much weaker and I don't know how long they would last in T3 engine . Has anyone tried this ?

They would be fine. The stock stuff is really good.
B'villetom used them in his land speed car and while he did grenade it, it had nothing to do with the pistons/rods.
He was making about 200hp.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:46 pm 
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DTM GTi wrote:
I'm using 5th option when rebuilding Mk1 T3 engine and will post in a few days when I finish and engine is running .

has it been a few days yet ?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:32 pm 
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n1tr0 wrote:
DTM GTi wrote:
I'm using 5th option when rebuilding Mk1 T3 engine and will post in a few days when I finish and engine is running .

has it been a few days yet ?


duh, what was the 5th option again? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:18 am 
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This past summer I had all kinds of problems with my Mk1 T3 . It ran like crap . I changed everything I could think of and it still ran like crap . I finally traced the problem to main crank pulley bolt . It got loose , not all the way but enough to bang against the key until key way was widened by 1/8" . So every time that my A/C would kick in it would move main crank pulley and throw crank and cam out of sync . It was summer and I was just about to start packing to leave for Europe so JB Weld came to my rescue . I made a piece of sheet metal in same profile as key and JB Welded everything and torqued it to 75 ft/lb . Car ran as new for a few months until rains came and I had to use my A/C to dry my windows , it never got as bad as first time around but it was time to change that crank . I started looking around my house and tool shed and realized that I have whole spare drive train . It was time to rebuild me another engine so I can just do a swap . I started by porting and polishing cylinder head . When it was time to take short block apart I was little rough with it and I broke one of the pistons ( there was some surface rust in one of the cylinders )

The FIFTH SOLUTION

That is when my hunt for pistons started . I checked out all four options mentioned above and decided to go with fifth one . After brainstorming with local Suzuki 4X4 guys I started looking at pistons out of Vitaras but they are all 16V and Mk1 T3 is two valve cross flow design . There was 8V 1.6 motor in Sidekick , that looks just like G10 with extra cyl , so thanks to my friend that works at Carquest I got set of them (4) and sure enough they looked vary similar to my pistons , almost as strong , valve cutouts in right places , floating wrist pin design of same size as Mk1 T3 . Only difference was 75 mm diameter and lower height of the piston from wrist pin to top 0.5 mm and longer skirts . When we calculated CR for that piston it turned out it would be the same because of increase in bore . Great . I sent my block to a machine shop .

When I got my block from a machine shop I started on the assembly . Everything looked great till I dropped first piston in to the block . Spun the crank and after 180 there was KLUNK !!!! Piston did not clear the crank . Counter weight was hitting the skirt of the piston . NOW WHAT ? I pulled the piston out and it turned out it was the wrong radius on the skirts that was the problem . Great . Took the pistons to my friends garage , got them on milling machine and cut smaller radius on the skirts . Bonus of that machine work was that pistons got to weigh same as stockers 228g ( they were 229 and one was 230 )

Back at my house I dropped them back in to the block and everything worked fine . I was back in business and had new solution for a constant problem- pistons for Mk1 T3 .

Since I have not heard of anyone using these pistons I was little apprehensive about whole experiment but today I got her fired up . She started on the first crank and ran like a champ . Drove around the block and everything seams OK . I'll report back after everything gets sorted out .

Few pics of the rebuild and pistons

Chris feel free to edit the post . I know its little longwinded .


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:30 am 
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more pics


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:32 am 
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some more pics


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:44 am 
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looks really good, pictures are a little small. one more question, could you let us know what sort of charges the machine shop billed you (or would typically bill) for the clearancing of the pistons and boring/cleaning up your block ?

I've got an extra block, crank, rods all sitting here that i'd like to start putting together before mikes head & jess's turbo setup gets here, but i don't even know what size bearings i'm going to need or what sort of $$ i need to budget.

thanks for option# 5 :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:42 pm 
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perhaps rods out of the 1.6 8valve motor would be another possibility,rather than machine your pistons. if the stroke is the same as the 1.0 then it stands to reason that the rod is just longer.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:08 pm 
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Kris
I cleaned up the block . To bore the block it is typically $20 per hole . My whole bill was $89 but they also did my flywheel . I just pulled the bill : $65 for rebore/hone and $25 resurfacing the flywheel + tax . My friend did the pistons so that was free , don't know how much would that run . Can't be that much it took us 20 min to do it . I used all standard size bearings since that block had easy life , some old lady owned the car , so when I took it apart I had to call my buddy in UK that gave me that block to ask him if he rebuild it . It looked that good inside . Out of my own experience rebuilding G10 in T3s and NA Sprints and Metros I would use and I have used standard size bearings in at least ten rebuilds . It worked great each time .



tuffcarguy
Rods are not same out of 1.6 motor , it has longer stroke . Bore is only 1mm bigger so longer stroke was needed to get 1.6 L out of 1.3 block .


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:28 pm 
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Good write up. I believe it's important to mention those mods are applicable for the MK1 models, not the mk2.

I later found out you could use vitara pistons in almos any G10 motor, as long as you're being carefull not to rotate the crank without timing belt. Yes, the only downside when using the 4-cutouts vitara pistons is that your G10 will now be a interference engine.

Here is a little quizz for our G10t specialits;

The standard G10 block has a oil restrictor located just below the deck in the top end oil way while the G10 turbo don't. Why? 8)


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 Post subject: The great Jardamuth Quiz
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:04 pm 
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Jardamuth wrote:
The standard G10 block has a oil restrictor located just below the deck in the top end oil way while the G10 turbo don't. Why? 8)


Would it be that the top end oil supply for the turbo needs to be greater than a non turbo engine?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:22 pm 
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Jardamuth wrote:

Here is a little quizz for our G10t specialits;

The standard G10 block has a oil restrictor located just below the deck in the top end oil way while the G10 turbo don't. Why? 8)


i think that the turbo oil supply routing has a lot to do with it. i can't find any documentation on the internal oil lines for the g10 or g10t and i've been looking.

jard, at the end of the quiz will you be supplying the correct answer? :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:05 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:

jard, at the end of the quiz will you be supplying the correct answer? :D


Hummmmm maybeeeeee.

But I'm sure Sprf1y know the answer also, having dismlantled so many turbo & non-turbo heads.


Last edited by Jardamuth on Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:16 pm 
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You sleeve the block, use forged, strong and superlight bike pistons and G13B GTi rods. A little birdie told me...one that has done it.... :sunny:

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 Post subject: Re: .....
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:36 am 
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OzMidnight wrote:
You sleeve the block, use forged, strong and superlight bike pistons and G13B GTi rods. A little birdie told me...one that has done it.... :sunny:


you can stick with the Turbo3 rods since they're the same as the Gti :razz:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:10 am 
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so to summarize, g13a 1.3 (1298 or 1324cc) pistons are going to be the same as the g16 sidekick pistons except that the sideskirts should already clear our crank and offer the same compression, same cutouts, etc ?

gti connecting rods are also interchangeable with the mk1/mk2 turbo 3's ? and the wrist pins are all the same as well ?
i'm kind of glad i ran short on funds and haven't ordered my rebuild kit yet.

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 Post subject: Re: .....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:25 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
you can stick with the Turbo3 rods since they're the same as the Gti :razz:


Ahhhh...we never got the T3 here...so had no way of knowing that. The forged bike pistons the little birdie is using have lasted a whole season of racing with no problems whatsoever. They are certainly light...

Thanks for poking your tongue...I'm sure you do that to all the guys... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:59 pm 
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He pm'd me....you are right, he is.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:34 pm 
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I'm still a little confused as to which pistons work <with or without machining>

I'd be interested in going up to 75mm pistons and wondered which engine codes i should be looking for

I've got pricing and availability on the following sets

G16K or KC $95
G13A $115
G13BA $115

we need to rebuild our G10T after losing two headgaskets on a race weekend <think the rings got cooked> and have two blocks i wouldnt mind building up.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:05 am 
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I,m not sure of the engine codes but the pistons in my rebuild are for Sidekick 1.6 8V engine . Other then cleaning the radius on the skirts they work great . 20.000 mils of hard driving later engine runs better then ever .


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:13 am 
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Could somebody point me in the direction of a part number for an engine rebuild kit (all the gaskets and what nots) that you would get from NAPA or Crappy Tire for the turbo 3? Or do you just use the kit for a regular G10?

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