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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:31 pm 
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wagon and i spent another 5 or 6 hours beating on this megasquirt project. by the end of the session i was ready to drop kick the megasquirt! :evil:

trying to tune the 6 cylinder hack is a pain in the ass! the engine speed is doubled which really skews the ignition and injection tables. the engine is making 1000 rpms and the megasquirt calls it 2000 rpm. that seems to cause the megasquirt to move to points on the tables that call too much fuel and too much ignition advance.

after futzing around, replacing new spark plugs with more new spark plugs, replacing a coil that apparently went belly up, and adjusting the timing belt back a tooth on the cam gear, the engine ran pretty smoothly at 1000 rpm (real engine rpm, not the 2000 rpm indicated by the virtual tach on the megasquirt.) at 800 rpm the cam suprf1y sent me has a significant lope and sounds as mean as a junk yard dog. :wink:

i ended the day by shutting everything down and disconnecting the netbook. then i got back in the car to roll up the windows and on a whim, i tried to start the engine again. it didn't hit a lick which had me puzzled. i reconnected the netbook and fired everything back up. tuner studio gave me a message that it located a controller that didn't have any firmware installed.

for the second time, the megasquirt shit it's bed! :evil: it just doesn't seem to like not having the netbook and tuner studio hold it's hand and it throws a fit and clears it's processor.

that won't work for me. you don't know how frustrated i am. :huh:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Keep on the Move She's Running ! Need to Tune it Right and pleasure to Become !!! :mrgreen: =)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:18 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
it didn't hit a lick which had me puzzled. i reconnected the netbook and fired everything back up. tuner studio gave me a message that it located a controller that didn't have any firmware installed.

for the second time, the megasquirt shit it's bed! :evil: it just doesn't seem to like not having the netbook and tuner studio hold it's hand and it throws a fit and clears it's processor.

that won't work for me. you don't know how frustrated i am. :huh:


i feel the same way with my project. i think it time to play 'bodies' by drowning pool .

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:40 am 
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At this point I would really really like to test your MS unit. I can't say it never happened to me (happened on my bro-in-law's vert while I was tuning with him) I can't find any documentation about the processor flushing it's memory.

did you load the firmware on a REAL serial port on a desktop computer? if not you should give it a try. if you did then I'm speechless.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:52 pm 
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i didn't install the serial mux chip. i used the little usb serial converter board as supplied by diyautotuning. matt cramer, you may recognize his name from the ms2extra forum, works for diy and those guys absolutely guarantee the functionality of the usb board.
Image

the usb board is attached to the top cover in the pic.

to use the usb serial board, you leave the chip out. i have the ms2 board socketed for the standard serial mux. the tx and rx wires from the usb board connect to the tx and rx pads for the standard serial mux and the only other 2 wires are +12 volts and ground. both were taken from the breadboard area on the version 3 ms2 board per the instructions.

4 wires - hard to ball up that deal. :wink: also, the only laptop i have left with a db9 serial port is my dinosaur thinkpad that is now giving me a fan error at post. i have been using it for any bench testing and to recover from the processor flushing it's firmware code.

i'm very near just scrapping the 6 cylinder hack, buying the jbperf 4 channel board, installing a cam angle sensor, and starting once more with the full sequential mode to simplify things. i never would have thought that more complexity would make things easier. =)

meanwhile, i'm working on the tuning by changing the rpm row at the bottoms of the Ve and ignition tables to divide by 2. that way the tables generated by the firmware will reflect the actual rpm for the 3 cylinder engine instead of the hacked values. the tables indicate 2000 rpm while the engine is actually spinning at 1000 rpm. i'm thinking that causes the ignition timing to be all the way in too early and the fuel injection to run too rich throughout the mapping. less than an hour of actual run time had new plugs sooted out and the number 2 plug fouled to the point of no spark and dripping wet. new plugs got things back to running but the engine is so pig rich that you can smell the unburned gas in the exhaust. too much cranking without the engine lighting off requires full throttle (megasquirt goes to flood clearing mode) to get the engine to catch and run.

also, cold start fuel enrichment is out of whack. the engine actually starts better when it's hot.

throughout all the tuning headaches, i can feel the promise of a really strong engine. the compression has actually increased to the point that it's pretty difficult to roll the engine over by hand using a socket on a ratchet. i had to switch to a longer handled ratchet to get the engine over the compression strokes on each cylinder. :wink:

i'm not beaten yet. :-P i have to take a break from this vert to go collect another 91 red box stock car from my dad this weekend but as soon as i have it in the driveway i'll get back to ol' blue. my 105 amp alternator arrived today so i'll probably get that bolted on before i continue with the tuning. i'll probably need a new starter before i'm done, too. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:45 pm 
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I have good news for you, well sort of... I'm ordering a MS kit for someone. this means I'll be able to test the 6 cylinder stuff. no matter how many cylinders you tell MS, one crank revolution remains one crank revolution! you have your trigger wheel settings right, I just don't understand why it runs at double speed, unless you got the timing reversed? no it would do the reverse thing. you'd have half the actual speed in the gauge.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:10 pm 
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one crank revolution maybe, but one engine cycle is 720*.

i read another statement in the mse manual which indicates that the 6 cylinder setup requires either 2 or 6 injection events. my setting is one. 6 floods the engine before it has a chance to run. there's also a setting for simultaneous or alternating injection. i have simultaneous selected.

besides your posts to the ms2e forum, there was only one other 3 cylinder reference and that guy was microsquirting a bike and asking about wasted spark mode. i guess that none of the other g10 megasquirt guys ever had any problems getting things dialed in. :-P

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:13 pm 
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IIRC V8Vega had a thread about a problem he had in the MS forum

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:09 pm 
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while i'm playing megasquirt, i took the chance on ordering parts for the alternator upgrade. 1987TurboSprint's project got the upgrade and since my project has morphed into a pinball machine, i ran out of electrical power. i still have to install the 2 spal pwm fan speed controllers and that will require even more power.

pictures are better than words to illustrate the physical differences between the 55 amp stock unit and the 105 amp upgrade.

Image
Image
Image
Image

i specifically chose the cs130 alternator for chevy c, k, r, and v series pickup trucks with 5.7 liter v8 engines from 87-88. the top mounting ear is clocked to correctly fit the suzuki application and the ear has an 8mm x 1.25 threaded hole like the stock unit.

if you can't fabricate your own bottom bracket, you can buy a mounting kit that includes the adapter wire for $45 shipped. that bracket was designed for a g13 samurai cs130 alternator upgrade and will work on any g-family suzuki engine (g10, g13, g16.) you're on your own to sort out the pulley.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:50 pm 
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what about nitro's T3? wasn't it setup with edis6 stuff?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:52 pm 
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nitro's mk1, from what i've seen, used a porsche 60 tooth wheel and coil set - three 2 pole coils with half the spark towers grounded.

i'm also thinking that he was running ms squirt n spark on a ms1 box. there wasn't too much tech data on his rig that i recall.

i didn't get anything much done with the blue car, just little things i wanted to attend to like building the tachometer translator to run my cluster instrument from the megasquirt. the commonly accepted way to do this among the megasquirt community is to use a pretty high voltage but common signal amplifier transistor to pulse a coil used as a load. if i'm not confusing the name, i believe the circuit is called a common emitter. it was shown in the megamanual with no biasing, a 1000 ohm resistor series input resistor on the transistor's base, the collector to ground, and the coil between the emitter and +12 volts. i used a sealed relay from my stash of metro parts that i believe was used by the a/c from my old yellow twincam vert. it's a small relay with only 4 pins. that worked for me because i built it in a little plastic project box mounted behind battery. i understand that the clacking of the relay in sync with the rpm drives you nuts so i just put it under the hood. it's wired up and ready for testing.

i'm waiting for sportage 4x4 to review my msq file and give me some pointers before i light the engine off again.

meanwhile, i've been catching all the last minute adjustments and tidying up. i have all the parts to mount the 105 amp alternator and i might as well do that with the car up on jack stands as it will probably be best to do 80% of the job from the bottom since i have to take the bracket off the block to mount the new one. also, i think i have more room to get the alternator in through the bottom.

here's the bottom of the car after i finished the covers that go on over the fuel and brake lines.
Image

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:17 pm 
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here's what occupied my time and kept me from the blue car.

my next victim. :ez_evil:
Image

it's a box stock 91 vert. the only things in the car that didn't come with it are the radio and the floor mats.
Image

stock. i'm not going to do anything to this car except fix the rust. really, i'm not going to turbocharge it. :twisted: seriously, i'm not going to. :wink:
Image

i unleashed wagon on the new car and he replaced 3 rusty brake lines (which took a while) and the front rubber hoses, adjusted the clutch, and set the timing up to 10 degrees. it also got the obligatory hosing down, not really a wash, more of a blasting off of the crap that was stuck to it after moldering at the back of a loafing shed for 3 years. i swept the carpet and laid in some carpet type mats i had in the garage. it runs and stops now. i'll grab some tags for it tomorrow and it'll be ready for 45mpg commuting on wednesday so i can finish out the season with the top down. :D

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:59 pm 
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i have just a few odd things to report,

yesterday while i was prowling the junk yards i just happened to look down at something shiny and it was one of those mls exhaust gaskets for a 3 banger! no metro around (there were only 2 late model lsi cars in the yard) and out of all the bits of crap laying on the ground, this caught my eye. what kind of luck is that? :ez_pimp:

i've been looking for a decent hood for months. i missed a really nice silver one when i was too poor to buy it. now the car has been crushed. the turbo3 scoop made a nice hole for rain to blow in and drip all over my polished aluminum and i need a solid hood with no scoop for sleeper-ness. :-P

i gave the red vert all my love this weekend. the old plugs were worn to .060 and there was a nick in the coil wire so i bought new stuff at auto zone, ngk copper plugs and house brand wires, and installed those. i also replaced the o-ring on the distributor and degreased the engine bay. i replaced the clapped out speakers in the dash with my very last new set of kove 4" compaxials. the 3/4" silk dome tweeters sound nice.

i need to take an afternoon off and go to jim's auto electric to drop off a high torque starter for a rebuild and pick up a new 3 groove pulley that will fit the 105 amp alternator so i can get to that mod. i'm going to try my hand at video documentation of that with my little video recorder. i've got some video editing software i want to try out and a new youtube channel to which i can post videos. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Keep it rolling Richard! Sometimes it seems NEVERENDING... but it'll all be worth it! :P

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:26 pm 
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i've been collecting parts to migrate the megasquirt to full sequential operation and i'm pretty psyched by some of the bits. i found a tiny hall effect sensor for the cam angle signal that has a snap in peg and an alignment pin molded into the case. there's a big flange cast onto the front end of the valve cover right next to the cam gear where i can drill 2 small holes to snap in the sensor on a line between the timing mark notch in the flange to the center of the cam setting the sensor at a radius that allows it to coincide with rim of the gear.

the gear itself gets a 1/8" hole drilled 3/4" deep into it's rear face to accept a long, skinny, cylindrical alnicoV magnet located in line with the timing mark stamped into the face of the gear.

the hall effect device generates a super clean square wave as a part of it's processing and the megasquirt really like it. to get the sensor signal into the megasquirt, you use an optoisolator circuit and the whole deal is stable to 20,000 rpms. i like the technology so well that i might change my crank sensor technology over to it.

the more important news is that i found a guy to custom build head studs for me in high tensile strength 17-4 stainless steel. when i got yappin' with him he came up with all kinds of stuff.

i got a full set of stainless steel intake and exhaust mounting studs delivered from him already while the head studs are being made and they're super nice. he also took my list of hardware, assembled during this last build, and gave me a really good price on a 168piece "kit" which includes almost every bolt to assemble an engine. here's a pic of the intake and exhaust studs. they have allen heads on one end for installation and removal. 100% reuseable.
Image

since i'm in the groove of acquiring parts to build my next turbo3 engine over the winter i may as well scare up the hardware like this. if you guys are interested in stainless steel bolt sets, pm me. these sets include some extra stuff so they're compatible with the normally aspirated g10 engines.

i'm going to work on the big bolts like the ones for engine mount brackets and the transmission to block in 17-4 stainless next. if there's something that really pisses me off, it's rusty bolts on a car! :evil: even as well preserved and loved as ol' blue is i was still snapping bolts right and left on things under the car and under bumper skins. now, almost everything is corrosion free should stay that way from now on.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:08 pm 
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Those look like quality products! I want something along the lines for my twin cam :D.

Chris

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:20 am 
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i'm pretty sure that they are same on the twincam, just more of them. count the holes on your intake and exhaust flanges and pm me. :D

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:36 am 
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not to pooh pooh the nice looking product Richard, but there is a reason for the studs to have flat faces in the middle and not threads all the way down the barrel. I learned the hard way.

and lost a driveshaft.....(not n a swift of course)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:04 am 
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lindsay,

these studs aren't critically loaded and aren't on moving parts. i'll use medium strength (blue) thread locker on the ends that go into the head and never seize on the ends that accept the nuts.

if they're good enough for drag cars, they'll work fine for our g family engines. :wink:

both suprf1y and jardamuth razzed me about using rusty studs when i built my last g10t and i'm not gonna' give 'em any ammunition on the next one. :-P

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:49 pm 
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I've got the same exhaust bolt set up on one of my T3's.
There's a nice industrial hardware right next to my work,
I just took my old bolts in and matched them up.
It's a self service deal, they let you browse all the nuts
'n bolts galore.

I did the same on my intake setup, but the only problem was
the bolt heads were 13mm instead of 12mm, so in some places
you need some good slimline wrenches to install them.

They have plenty of grade 8+ stuff too, but it's a bit tricky
finding the extra duty stainless stuff there.
There's always McMaster too, they have plenty of stuff you
can mail order. I think they're catalogue is like 5000 pages.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:04 pm 
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that's pretty much how i did my current engine. handfuls and little bags of stuff as i went looking for everything. as i removed bolts i measured them and wrote it all down. i went back through and made a list of all the bolt dimensions and my stainless guy put together the sets.

the special stuff, the 17-4 hand made stuff is where the expense is. i'm anxious to get my hands on the head studs. trying to run down something that would work from the arp inventory nearly made me snatch myself bald. i never did really find anything there

i figure that this will make it easy to just get everything at once so other guys won't have to spend weeks measuring, matching, and shopping. also, there are a lot of guys who don't live in a metropolitan area with custom fastener jobbers close by. i just can't imagine having to match up everything online.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:29 pm 
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i bolted on the 105 amp alternator today and shot some video to explain the upgrade.

















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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:06 pm 
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still pics.

here's a top view. plenty of room there.
Image

pic from the bottom. plenty of room here, too.
Image

don't forget to upgrade the charging cable from the bigger alternator to the battery. i was out of 4 gauge cable so i made one using 2 8 gauge cables in parallel. i fused it for 100 amps, ran it directly to the battery positive post, and left the stock charging wire connecting the alternator to the fuse and relay rack to supply the original chassis harness.
Image

if you didn't catch it from the video, i used the stock 4 groove alternator sheave from the bosch/ nippon denso alternator on the delco-remy cs130 alternator. they don't make a 3 groove pulley that will work with this mod without machining.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:32 am 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
lindsay,

these studs aren't critically loaded and aren't on moving parts. i'll use medium strength (blue) thread locker on the ends that go into the head and never seize on the ends that accept the nuts.

if they're good enough for drag cars, they'll work fine for our g family engines. :wink:

both suprf1y and jardamuth razzed me about using rusty studs when i built my last g10t and i'm not gonna' give 'em any ammunition on the next one. :-P



Yeeeeessssssss... But engine movement could potentially rub the threads on the side of the bolt where it goes through the manifold plate.
Leads to more movement...leads to loose bolts...just a thought...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:08 pm 
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i'll be the first one to know if anything falls off the car. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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