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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:22 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Canada
Hey,

Love the work you have done, everything is so detailed, nice job.

I notice you have had issues with exhaust parts (gaskets, metal failure, etc.) and I thought I saw the stock tail pipes in one of your videos. If you are still using the stock muffler and stock size exhaust pipe that could be your issue. It could not be allowing the heat out.

Im not sure your mechanical back ground or what you have done to the exhaust (post down pipe) but it was just a thought.

Either way the car looks great.


Dave


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 am 
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Thanks for the compliments :D

I'm not a metallurgist, but I do understand that since the header was only
made of mild steel, it was the wrap that caused the failure.
I am deleting the wrap on the new header and having the new header
made of a more robust stainless steel and ceramic powder coat.

The downtube is 2-1/2" stainless, other pipes upgraded to 2-1/4.
Yes, I'm using the stock muffler for stealth =)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:06 pm 
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i didn't use the header wrap on mine, i used a fiberglass/foil blanket so it wouldn't trap moisture against the manifold.

your new stainless steel manifold, especially ceramic coated, should hold up much better.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:25 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA
It seems like an eternity since I sent the header in back in January,
but Jard came through, so big thanks to Turbine Tech for helping
me out! It takes some talent to build a piece like this.

Image

I've got some mixed reviews on it as I'm a very picky SOB,
but very very happy to have this in my hands right now.
I needed a new header and was told I could have a duplicate
made by sending the old one in.

Image

So it's pretty amazing that the new piece is constructed
to fit the same with all the angles & such. How do they do it?
Of course I was diassapointed to find out later that I wouldn't
get a new header, that the old one would be rebuilt.
I really wanted the old one back as a conversation piece.
Nevertheless they did a nice job of slicing up the old one,
replacing the tubes with stainless and reusing the flanges.

Image

It looks good overall, and I can't wait to mount it up. And there's slightly
more clearance by the mounting holes (as I had asked for) so I can get a better grip on the
nuts/bolts when installing, as the old one was off just enough it was
a PITA on a couple of the holes. Just one other comment on the build,
if the inside looked as smooth as the outside I'd have felt a wee bit better
for the time and money spent. There's some obvious flow obstructions
where the tubes join and overlap, for a piece this big it wouldn't have
taken much to smooth them out a bit before powdering. You can see
part in the center tube. Like I said I'm picky.

Image

I think most of the wait was for the powder coat. It looks damn cool
like chrome, and honestly you look at it and it looks like it was made
that way, not coated. So it looks like a fair job from "the best powder
coat shop in Canada". I think it's worth the extra money spent for
the ceramic coating in this case, but again, for the money and reputation
of the powder shop, I'd expected not to have any sags or runs, and there's
a couple places where it's light. But WTF, when I get it all mounted up
and start tearing up the pavement, I'm not even gonna notice. I'm sure
I'll get it nicked up a bit too in the process.

Image


Updates to follow soon!


Last edited by JamalSpelling on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:46 am 
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Image

Image


Last edited by JamalSpelling on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:46 pm 
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picky, picky! :lol:

nobody does turbo3 stuff as well as jardamuth. :wink:

come to think about it, nobody does turbo3 stuff except jardamuth! :D

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Yup, I'm just picky and anal retentive =)
and sometimes bitchy.

It's all good, I'd be nowhere without his stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:03 pm 
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bro, i hear you. :D

i'm all that x2. :wink:

maybe toss in a little obsessive-compulsive disorder. :-P

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:04 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA


After sitting for a few months, I had some minor issues.
A few of which were caused by some new ideas and others caused
by the idiosyncrocy of the OE Suzuki design and my efforts to
circumvent and modify stock components.

I got some new/used injectors on Ebay, some 320cc and wired 'em up in my
effort to find the perfect injector size. So after I got the exhaust all buttoned up
and ready for a test drive, it barely ran. Lean as hell at idle. I drove around
a mile or two hoping things would settle in, but no luck. I figured I got a bad
set and put the previous ones back in with the same symptoms.
What I finally figured out was since I had the spring wound so tight in the VAF,
that that was the problem. So I reset the spring to factory tension and Voila!
Since I had the battery disconnected, I'm sure the ECM lost all memory and needed to
relearn. What I remember now regarding the VAF spring tension, is that I had
to incrementally adjust the tension to get to the stiff setting I had. It causes
problems if you go from the OE setting up to a full turn on the spring cog wheel,
you need to go a few clicks at a time, then drive and let it adjust, then repeat.
I know it sounds half ass, but that is how it's done.

I figure I'm good to go and go for a longer drive, after a couple miles I pop
the hood to check things out and find oil everywhere. I get back to the garage
and try to figure out WTF. Clean it all up and determine it must be the way
I recirculated the BOV. Since there's mysterious oil on top of the valve cover
it must have leaked out past the cap. I should have left well enough alone
with the factory style vent to atmosphere, but thought it might be better
to recirculate - I thought wrong. Well, maybe at least the way I routed it.
The tube that goes from the valve cover to the intake tube (pre turbo) was
where I teed in - not a good idea. When the BOV released, it pressurized
the valve cover and shot oil past the seal on the oil cap and drizzled down
everywhere. Simple solution is to delete the recirc mod and all is well.

Oil problem fixed. Now back to the fuel cut issue. With the VAF spring
setting at OE or close to it, I can't build enough boost (without
triggering fuel cut) to where I figure
my little anti-fuel cut device should kick in. After cleaning up the oil spray and
retightening a few bolts to eliminate all exhaust leaks, I crank up the spring
a little tighter and go for a longer test drive to make sure everything settles in.
Nice 'n easy, new manifold seems to be leak free, ECM's learning A/F quick,
stable idle, fuel augmentation under boost, everything seems goood.
I get to my work, hang out a while and before going back home, crank up
the VAF spring a bit more. It takes the ECM a couple miles to adjust and
this time take the freeway. So far so good, hit boost in excess of 10 PSI
without fuel cut this time and things seem back to normal before the
previous exhaust manifold failure.

In fact, I'm noticing about the same amount of heat or less with the new
header, than with the old one wrapped. Judged by opening the hood and
using my hands on adjacent surfaces to feel the heat.

Things are good. Nice to be behind the wheel again of this beasty.
It's such a nice ride, I forgot since I've been driving around the others.
The clutch is so nice and such a light pedal, all the new suspension is so tight,
it's really a joy to drive and the way it pulls is like no other.
It's become a standard to which I'm comparing my other T3's.

I'll take it again tomorrow and go a little harder on it now,
I'm really anxious to see if my anti fuel cut device is really working.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Location: Phoenix
I am really struggling with mine. I don't understand all of the ciruitry that these things need and run. So My new GT-15 is working, but fighting this stock fuel garbage.
What are the best options for stand-alone fuel or fuel/ignition systems?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:27 am 
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Actually, I am having several issues too. I haven't been driving it around
since last year, and since I've been working on other projects, I guess I
forgot all the problems I had getting it to run right. And yes, the main
issue being fueling.

Seems the favorite option around here is Megasquirt for fueling.
And I'm tending to agree as it gives you almost unlimited options
for fueling and ignition. The startup price is peanuts compared
to all the other stuff and you have the option to build it from scratch
by buying a kit, or for a few dollars more you can buy it already assembled.
It just depends how much you want to get involved, but regardless,
there's still a HUGE learning curve involved in Megasquirting.

Unfortunately, I think I'll be jumping on that band wagon as well, as
much as I thought I could tweak the stock stuff the potential benefits
from MS are too much to ignore.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:01 pm 
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I have done so much that it is sickening. But every time I get crippled by the stock stuff. The thing makes power like I have not had in a turbo sprint, but when the rpm's gets high, it starts to bang. I can run it with a little lighter foot and not get into that, but it just bugs me that it still happens. And this is all stock stuff. (Excpet for turbo.) I have three cars and two have sheered the main shaft in the stock turbo. So had to go to another option. All of the trick parts were waiting to see if I could get this one working with stock fuel mapping. guess not.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:39 am 
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Yup banging is bad, knock is no good - horrifying actually.
You can try a few things like modifying your fuel pressure regulator for more pressure,
bigger injectors, and making sure your knock sensor is doing it's job and of
course correct timing. Also bigger I/C and or meth/water injection.
I got around the knocking ok, but now that I got the new header squared away
and cleared up my exhaust leaks, it's like I'm starting over tweaking the fueling
vs. the extra boost I want to run. I'm pretty much out of options right now
so I'm diving into the Megasquirt stuff.
Yup, plenty of power on this end, It's amazing, but I'm very limited by the stock
computer. It's maddening! :x


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:50 pm 
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OK, now's all back to normal and then some.

The new header is working good,
though not sealing 100% as when the tubes were
replaced with stainless, the flanges were reused
and now the main flange is not square, so I have
minor leakage. I have 2 options, one being to
ditch the MLS gasket and go back to the perforated
style gasket, or remove the header and have the
sealing surface machined. Right now I'm just gonna
live with it.

But since I was having issues after getting it all
backtogether, and it wasn't quite back to the the 'ole
rocket sled & fueling was sporatic & a/f was whack -
I found the culprit which was the BOV leaking.
The seal on the valve had come loose and jammed the
BOV open slightly. I had this issue before, and forgot
that I had only made a temp. fix of gluing the seal on
with some silicone. So this time I used Permatex
aviation form a gasket, which if you've ever used it,
you know how sticky it is and hard to remove once
applied. So I think my seal is staying put now!
That instantly cleared up all my issues and now
it's a mini rocket sled again.

So now my big problem is trying to steer the damn
thing under boost. It's not so much torquey off the line
as when the boost kicks in it tends to pull violently
from side to side as the power tries to distribute
to the front wheels. A nice problem to have, but I think
it will only be solved by some sort of limited slip
differential mod and that ain't gonna be cheap! =)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Location: Laval,Qc
So you just proved by tricking a bit the VAF, Tricking the Fuel Regulator and bigger injector you can reach the 10psi with the Stock Computer ! That Make's me Happy I didn't want to get involved in a Megasquirt that is really complicated and would need to ask to somebody to do the job and tune it the best it can until it reach the perfect point, and not knowing what to do ! Good Job :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:35 am 
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Quote:
So you just proved by tricking a bit the VAF, Tricking the Fuel Regulator and bigger injector you can reach the 10psi with the Stock Computer


Well yes, but that was no big secret. Especially if you're only running the stock turbo.

The real secret is getting the correct fueling with the increased boost, and having that fuel ratio proper throughout
the boost range.

I'm running larger turbo, huge pipes, huge FMIC so I'm not only increasing the boost but allowing for much more
flow as well. If I was running 15 psi on stock turbo, I wouldn't nearly be flowing as much air as 15psi on
larger turbo & piping.

As boost pressures and flow rates dramatically increase, so do fuel requirements Rapidly increase.

My main problem was the fuel cut out because of high airflow - every time I thought I had mechanically
compensated components to avoid it, I would still get fuel cut. The problem was, I did not have a stable
platform to work with as the hole in the header got bigger, I kept adjusting tune for performance (not knowing
I had an exhaust leak that was getting bigger and bigger) but everything kept changing because the boost
rate was changing because the exhaust leak was changing.

OK, so now that I have a solid header again, I'm working with a relatively stable platform.
I've installed/modified components to give me a "happy medium" along with a beefed up fuel
delivery system (pump, FPR, injectors) under extreme boost pressures. Now that I don't
have any weak links (exh. leaks, leaking BOV, inadequate fuel etc.) I can get consistent
results.

However, I really have no control over anything. I'm now at the limit, and I've dialed the
car in to a 'happy medium' and I can do no more. Megasquirt is now the only option
and will allow ultimate controlling of fueling during all conditions as well as timing.
The car's pretty fast now, but I'm settling for 2nd best - I have to accept the fueling
and timing as it is, while it's adequate to keep the motor from exploding, it's really
piss poor compared to what it could be if I were able to actually control it.
Yup, seems MS is the only way to go at this point.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:33 pm 
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I Understand the fact about increasing the fuel/air ratio vs the psi you add !

Since my motor as been redone, fixed poor intake hose,2'' Exhaust system without a Catalytic converter with no exhaust leak that become smaller at the end since the tail piece that goes from the front of the rear axle to the stock muffler is the stock size of the N/A 3cyl. geo metro might help I don't know so I installed a brand new fuel pump for GT Swift, new strainer, new fuel filter and timing was right on it, the car became a fastball man, on third gear on wet pavement the car was still overspinning i was like What the Hell ? Okay rear is stripped but man my buddy had a nice Firefly Turbo boosting 10psi and never had that performance ! So the idea is maybe I have one of those car hunted or it's running more than the stock 8psi cause it's really quicker than the other Firefly even at 8psi ! So what i'm gonna do is leave it like it, and one i'll be ready add some goodie's, but first I Need a Boost Gauge to know what this car is popping out !

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Location: california
So did you ever get it on the dyno? I am curious to see how much power you can get with the stock ECU. I just bought my first Turbo Sprint last week; I wasan't really looking for a turbo, but it ran ok and the price seemed good. I was actually wanting a NA sprint, for a spare engine, for a MPG swap in my Austin Mini pickup project. I am getting to like this Turbo though, since I got 44 MPG on the first tank, and considering swapping the whole works into my pickup.
I learned a lot from reading this whole thread today; So 8 psi is stock; that is more than I thought. I doubt that I would need any more since the truck only weighs 1300 pounds, and I don't want to get into trany and clutch repairs, which seem inevitable with the higher power levels. I still have a couple questions remaining...what is the "fuel cut-off" that you talk about, where is it and why is it necessary? and why does it cut off the fuel at higher boost levels?
Great thread and thanks for posting.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:05 pm 
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My first dyno run was unsuccessful because of lean air/fuel conditions.
I need to schedule a new dyno run and see what numbers I get now.
Fuel cut is where the ECM turns off the fuel injectors in the event of
abnormally high boost pressure, somewhere around 11-12 psi if I
recall correctly. It is interesting how the high boost pressures are
actually monitored, but in general, when the flapper valve in the
VAF moves too far, it will initiate the fuel cut and the ck engine
light will illuminate briefly. So it's not actually sensing the boost,
but sensing airflow. When the airlfow is great enough through the
maf, the 'flapper' sends a signal to the ECU which cuts the injectors.
It may also depend upon other variables sensed by the ECU such
as throttle position, rpm and timing, thought it's a pretty 'grey'
area as the manual only covers this briefly and does not go into
specific detail. If you tighten the spring on the flapper valve in the
MAF it will cause greater resistence to the airflow, and if you get
the setting right, you can prevent the fuel cut, but it will change
the fueling slightly at any given operating condition so it's best
to monitor these with an A/F gauge if you are going to do any
modifications.
Fuel cut is designed as a safety, so at high boost levels you don't
go into a lean condition and melt a piston or otherwise damage
the motor running at levels for which it was not engineered for.
You can achieve high boost levels and more power with these
engines but you have to address the fueling issues and ensure
adequate fuel levels at high boost. This is done by increasing fuel
pressure, fuel flow & injector upgrades. However the stock ECU
is not too friendly with these mods and in most cases you will
not get good results, but with enough tweaking you can achieve
a 'happy medium'.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:16 pm 
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that is pretty much the same condition i had when i first tried to assemble a "hybrid" turbo3 using a n/a block with 9.1:1 base compression. the vaf gate would swing way open and shut down fueling.

the same engine bits transferred to a turbo3 block worked flawlessly when i sold the complete engine and control set years later.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:21 am 
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Quote:
So did you ever get it on the dyno?

I was looking through my paperwork and came across
the dyno run about a year ago.
Best peak HP was about 95 on one of the 5
aborted runs. I'd be willing to bet now I'm
in the 110-120 range. I was going to schedule
a run this week, but my water injection pump
crapped out so I'll wait to replace it.

I've been getting some pinging, so while trying to
troubleshoot the knock sensor, which for now I'm
going to have to assume is functioniong. I'm assuming
the timing retard to prevent knock is not able to
do it's job with the boost pressures of 15psi+.
With this assumption, I moved on to diagnose the
water injection, which should prevent any detonation
at the high boost, but found the pump inoperative.
Time to order a new one.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:41 pm 
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It was just a clogged nozzle.
I have a dyno test scheduled for today and will post results.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:07 am 
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For the Dyno results and vid please go here:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=53655&p=402002#p402002


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:17 am 
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Finally I broke something. Hopefully just an axle but it's not
the normal click sound. Something is definately broken good.

Time to put her in the garage. Got to pull the header back off
anyway and send it in for a recoat since the powder job
only lasted 2 weeks. Could be down for a while as I may
put a fresh motor in and try to sort out my transmission
issues and possibly and LSD of some sort.

Got to try to squeeze some more ponies out!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:04 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Found some new axles online for $70.
Seems like a decent price for new with nuts.
I'm not gonna mess with reconditioned axles this time,
I've had good & bad luck with them & they never come
with the nuts anyway.
Since the timing is right for a week promo there's
free shipping and 15% off promos as well with
a $50 rebate to boot. Time to stock up.

So pretty sure this is the axle I haven't replaced.
Not surprised it kind of went- all of a sudden.

I'll get some more down time with this one,
and get inspired to get caught up with my other
projects since I'll be driving them around.


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