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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:15 am
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Location: edmonton
Is there any reason I can't swap a auto tranny to a turbo car? I bought a sprint and am taking the motor out and building a dune buggy for the kids sprint turbo auto spider gears welded in the transaxle motor placed front to back and output to sameri axles


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:18 am 
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If you don't mind shifting manually and the torque converter never locking, then why not. The turbo ecu has no idea what to do with an auto transmission so don't expect it to work like an automatic tranny.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:00 am 
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the auto should do it's thing and the motor seperate the auto will shift on its paramiters and the converter will lock on its own? No?
they have done this with a honda and the auto is not comp. controled it shifts by it's self


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:03 pm 
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Nope. The auto tranny that comes with the G-series engines is computer controlled for up/down shifting. You'll have to manually shift it when there's no computer controlling it.

I should ask: what year is the transmission from? I know the mk2+ trannies are computer controlled. The older models may still be mechanical.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Location: edmonton
AAHHH ok. rite now I don't have a trans but if I could find a non computer one it should work. I just got the car and this is what I want to do.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:27 pm 
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bogger44 wrote:
AAHHH ok. rite now I don't have a trans but if I could find a non computer one it should work. I just got the car and this is what I want to do.

Attachment:
hondakid buggy.jpg


Why would you want an auto tranny in THAT? It's just not fun :huh:

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:59 pm 
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maybe i have it wrong, but i thought that the ecu only provided the atcu module with rpm data and the atcu provided the shift points for the transmission. the automatic cars use a dual type throttle cable that provides the kick down signal to the pump and the electro-mechanical shifter switch selects the range. in drive, the atcu operates the shift solenoids.

i've never run the turbo3 with an automatic but i really don't see why you couldn't. suzuki did it with the twincam and the slushbox does an excellent job of dealing with the torque.

i'd recommend using the auto parts from a mk2 (89 thru 91) metro/ sprint/ firefly. you'll be on your own grafting the engine bay wiring together but i'd bet it's not a brain buster.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:07 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
i've never run the turbo3 with an automatic but i really don't see why you couldn't. suzuki did it with the twincam and the slushbox does an excellent job of dealing with torque.


I did. And it pretty much finished off the tranny I used. It wouldn't downshift when I punched it. I had to manually drop down a gear if I ever wanted to pass. The fluid was dark and burnt in no time. I recall being surprised how quickly the new fluid went from red to brown. I'm pretty sure the twin cam has a tcu doing the shifting tricks, which is why it worked well enough for the application. The turbo cars didn't even consider an auto.

I'm by no means an expert, but I'm pretty sure the mk2 tranny isn't the one you want.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:43 pm 
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chris, i know what you're saying about the turbo3 not being produced with an automatic but they made a ton of n/a g10s with slush boxes. those all have a similar atcu, per model year nearly identical except for the shift points that are set by the electronics. there's virtually no difference in the ecus between a normally aspirated manual g10 and a normally aspirated automatic g10 (i say that based on bigbear's analysis of the mapping on a gti auto eprom i sent him.)

the only data that the ecu provides is a piggybacked engine speed signal that feeds the atcu. straight from the factory service manuals, suzuki used the same automatic transmission in all their cars from mk1 thru mk5 - same transmission for like 14 years (except for the jdm cvt boxes.) the only difference from model to model has been the shift points hardwired into the atcus which optimize engine speed range. everything else from the pump, valve body, and torque converter is the same (again, that came from comparisons made from factory service manual data. i think the 92 model year fsm has the best auto transmission section.)

i contend that you could use the automatic, the whole system including the shifter, dual throttle cable (which provides the kick down function,) engine bay harness, and atcu, and build a working, self shifting hybrid g10t/ automatic. you'd use the automatic's radiator which would give you the transmission oil cooler.

suzuki used the same transmission on the gti without any problems and although the torque range for the g13b is different from the g10t, the torque itself is pretty close between the 2. they used the same auto transmission on all the sohc 8v and 16v cars, heavier than the mk2 and probably considerably heavier than a mud buggy, and those hold up fine. one of our more creative newer members did up a supercharged g13 and he said he preferred the slush box because it handled the increased torque better than the manual. and, if i recall correctly, the 300hp ozzie drag car uses the automatic for the same reason.

i'm just reticent to flat out discount running an automatic transmission on a turbo3 car. although i have no interest in doing it, i really think i could make it work without any more problems than lizzie's grocery getter sohc 16v g13 has had (which is none. :D )

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Last edited by t3 ragtop on Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:50 pm 
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I don't doubt it could be done, but after trying to find comparable signals between the n/a and turbo ecu and throttle body outputs, it wasn't meant to be for me. There would have to be a standalone controller for the tranny, and that was well outside my expertise and ambition. Someone would have to spend considerable time and energy to properly mate an mk2 auto trans to the turbo engine.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:05 pm 
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yeah, on the automatic cars, the atcu is all by itself mounted up under the dash to the right of the steering column and it does use a different tps.

when i was doping out the tps on my megasquirted turbo3 i noticed that the g10t's tps is a 4 wire unit like the auto's but the wiring doesn't use the 4th pin. the 4th pin is actually a switch just like the auto's tps and i think that the turbo3's tps would work okay with the automatic's atcu.

i couldn't see wasting a turbo3 tps on my megasquirt (because the stand alone isn't particular about the potentiometer, it will automatically calibrate to any 3 wire pot) so i just used a standard metro tps. i'll save that turbo3 oem tps for someone who really needs one for a stock g10t.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:15 am
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Location: edmonton
Why would you want an auto tranny in THAT? It's just not fun :huh:[/quote]

It's for my kids I'm building a dune buggy, like a rhino but better and cheeper


Last edited by bogger44 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:29 pm 
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yeah, a hundred mile an hour rhino for your kids. =)

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My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
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SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:31 am 
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Location: edmonton
I will govern it. here's a link a guy built one from a honda civic motor for his 7 year old daughter 31" tires and sammi axles. The transmission outputs to a 4.10 geared front and rear axle so even at 1to1 output at trans that gets cut to 4.10 at the axles.

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=633445


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:50 am 
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Wow, 12 posts before I had a chance to pipe up. :shock: :shock: :shock:

CJDavE wrote:
Nope. The auto tranny that comes with the G-series engines is computer controlled for up/down shifting. You'll have to manually shift it when there's no computer controlling it.

I should ask: what year is the transmission from? I know the mk2+ trannies are computer controlled. The older models may still be mechanical.

Good posting.
The MK1 has a 'piggy back' electronic control module (ECM) for the automatic in both 1985 and 1986 cars.
Image
You can see it as #27 above.
The ECM which controls the engine is #29.
Hopefully I don't have those numbers reversed, but it is getting late, and sundowner syndrome may be kicking in.
This information is valid for the USA market vehicles, as verified by our stock '85 automatic which operates fine.
Image
Somebody will a little better memory might help here, but I think that in 1987 the USA cars combined the automatic unit into the main ECM. Took me long enough to dig out that old engineer's line drawing, but it would depend on what engine/transmission you wish to transplant. If it is a management system from 85-86, you'll be wiring in 2 controllers; if you snagged a system from '87-88, you'd be wiring up a single ECM system.

I do recall that the altitude sensor was incorporated into the ECM beginning in '87, so if you use a ECM later than '86, you won't need an altitude sensor or engine compartment temperature sensor.

Not sure how advanced you are electrically, but there are a few fellows here who really get into the wiring end of things. Recently there was a 20+ page thread which may cover some of the material you'll have to master before the vehicle you are building will run right.

No matter how general or specific your task, just update this thread and you'd be amazed at the variety of knowledge the readership can contribute. You are well on your way, as you seem to have the ability to post pictures mastered, and that is really about the only thing this site needs to give you specific help.

Your 1.0L with a turbo should develop similar horsepower to my Wife's daily driver
(here's the link:)
teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50571

and the automatic has no issues with fluid turning brown or improper shift points.
The newer Dexron 6 would be your fluid of choice, and you should do a bit of research on it.
Originally, the automatic used Dexron 2, so times have changed quite a lot since 1985.
The Dexron 6 makes for a bullet proof transmission, and if you wire it right, it should be trouble free.
Your light weight body will tax the Aisin 3 speed automatic much less than any of our cars.

Again, my 2 cents, and we have automatics behind both 1.0L and DOHC engines.


Best of luck with your project, and we are looking forward to seeing it come together.

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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Location: Calgary
Did this Automatic MK2 turbo ever get built? How did it go? I'd like to put a turbo setup in my 90 4 door, but keep the automatic so the wife can still drive it.

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The favorite: Red turbo 3 swapped 90 firefly convertible with 3 tech cam and gear running 10psi rolling on 7 spoke GTI rims. Needs paint, a top, and more power, but lots of fun.

Honorable mention: 61 ford falcon money pit, 90 5.0 Lincoln LSC coupe with emotional attachment, supercharged teal 99 F150 for carrying firefly parts, and a black turbo volvo wagon with a dog gate to use every day.


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:55 pm 
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CJDavE wrote:
Nope. The auto tranny that comes with the G-series engines is computer controlled for up/down shifting. You'll have to manually shift it when there's no computer controlling it.

I should ask: what year is the transmission from? I know the mk2+ trannies are computer controlled. The older models may still be mechanical.


I have an '88 Forsa with auto trans that's carbed with the Hitachi ECM contolled carb and there is a second little electronic box on top ECM box which I think runs the transmission. I also have an '87 Sprint with auto trans with the Aisin carb which has no ECM running it and no other electronic boxes that I have seen, so I thinks its a hydro-mechanical controlled auto trans.
But all of these auto trans cars suck the big one on the freeway, no lockup, no overdrive. I only drive them during the times when all of my standard trans cars are broken down. It might be a better idea to teach your wife how to drive a standard transmission .


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:02 pm 
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I'm not sure if the T3 ECU's are the same as the G13bb, but for the G13bb, the manual trans ECU has a tach signal that is 50% duty cycle, the Automatic ECU has a variable duty cycle that corresponds to engine load, and the transmission controller uses that signal to determine shift points


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:47 am 
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Location: Calgary
How does the automatic n/a ECU calculate load? I would assume it's just from the MAP sensor reading and TP reading? If so, I could wire the turbo one up like a standalone, and hook up the map sensor and TP sensor to the auto ECU and a vacuum line, and let the turbo ECU do its own thing. If it needs something like a distributor input, that may not be as easy to obtain, as the distributors are different, but may be possible with some creative splicing.

I suspect the issue then would be that anything with boost would read as wide open throttle, so it might give some rough shifts, but would likely pretty much work. Maybe wiring in a 2 bar MAP is a possibility to allow it to read correctly?

Does anyone know of anywhere that I could obtain information on the ECU strategies for calculating load and networking it to the auto trans controller?

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The favorite: Red turbo 3 swapped 90 firefly convertible with 3 tech cam and gear running 10psi rolling on 7 spoke GTI rims. Needs paint, a top, and more power, but lots of fun.

Honorable mention: 61 ford falcon money pit, 90 5.0 Lincoln LSC coupe with emotional attachment, supercharged teal 99 F150 for carrying firefly parts, and a black turbo volvo wagon with a dog gate to use every day.


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 Post subject: Re: turbo with auto
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Waaaay back in the day, the TPS was my sticking point. You need a way of getting the values to both ECUs. You can't splice the output, so you'd either need to design a circuit that would enable identical outputs with no interference from the two ECUs or figure out a way to piggyback another TPS on top of the original one to get two outputs.

At that point it was easier and more fuel efficient to just suck it up and learn how to drive a stick. I've never looked back.

Good luck.

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