TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
I had heard through the grapevine that the K10B/M is the DOHC version of the g10. If so, I know the G10T parts should be relatively easy to interchange, making a turbo'ed version of this engine not only easy, but a very potent engine as well. Does anyone know where there might be some data about that? The UK sells these engines relatively cheap and the mpg and performance is much better than the g10, so I was looking into getting one. Any help would be very much appreciated.


Attachments:
$T2eC16ZHJF0E9nmFSue7BQR1fgkCVQ~~60_58.JPG
$T2eC16ZHJF0E9nmFSue7BQR1fgkCVQ~~60_58.JPG [ 72.06 KIB | Viewed 7699 times ]
blueFireflyTurbo_640_480.jpg
blueFireflyTurbo_640_480.jpg [ 83.51 KIB | Viewed 7699 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:39 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
There's no interchangeable parts between the engines, completely different, k10 has 73mm bore and 79mm stroke, fairly sure it's chain driven cams as well, engine is bulkier, gearbox is completely different with cable shift and different ratio's, fitting this engine into a swift is no easier than a toyota 4efte or similar.

If you want to build a 1L twincam then the g10b out of India is a shorter version of the g13bb engine, 4 cyl with 72mm bore and 16v sohc head although the g13b twincam head does bolt on and your gearbox and driveshafts and engine mounts will also bolt up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
So is the k10B motor worthwhile or are we Yankees barking up the wrong tree on this one?

These are the specs on the G10 That I found, so boring out the .9mm difference and the slightly longer stroke is a deal breaker?

The whole Idea that I was going for was to keep the car on a 3cyl powerplant.

Heres the stats I found on the g10...

A 73.9 mm (2.91 in) bore and 77 mm (3.03 in) stroke give the engine a total of 1.0 L (993 cc/60 in³) of displacement. It produces 48 hp (36 kW) at 5100 rpm and 77 N·m (57 lb·ft) at 3200 rpm with 9.5:1 compression in the carburated model, 55 hp (41 kW) at 5700 rpm and 79 N·m (58 lb·ft) at 3300 rpm in the fuel injected model. The original home market version originally offered a carburated 60 hp (45 kW) JIS at 5500 rpm, later power output fluctuated around 52-55 hp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:29 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
Wrong engine, I said g10B, the g10b is a 4cyl engine with 72mm bore and 61mm stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Zen

The g10 is the 3 cyl engine which is 74mm bore and 77mm stroke.

The twin cam g13b head fits onto the g10b block and would be the way to go if you specifically wanted a twincam 1.0 for racing(and it will sound awesome) but if you want economy then the k10 engine is much better, good power output and excellent fuel economy, the mpg figures for the k10 alto are in the high 40s without even trying.

Not quite sure why you would specifically want to keep the 3 banger :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
Wrong engine, I said g10B, the g10b is a 4cyl engine with 72mm bore and 61mm stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Zen

The g10 is the 3 cyl engine which is 74mm bore and 77mm stroke.

The twin cam g13b head fits onto the g10b block and would be the way to go if you specifically wanted a twincam 1.0 for racing(and it will sound awesome) but if you want economy then the k10 engine is much better, good power output and excellent fuel economy, the mpg figures for the k10 alto are in the high 40s without even trying.

Not quite sure why you would specifically want to keep the 3 banger

Oh ok I see what you are talking about. My mistake, just remember Im a bit of a newbie on suzuki's, so I am getting myself familiar with some of the different engines out there for these cars. That does sound like a really cool setup though. My big thing was that I saw that everyone either tries to go to some kind of swift gti or firefly turbo swap, and I just wanted to explore the option of doing something different out there. I thought that the K10B/M was something that it looks like nobody has tried to build up at all. I am a big OEM type guy, plus I hate when people just think you can bolt on a turbo and everything will be ok lol! I would probably build up the motor, blueprint, new injectors etc... I was basically building a proper turbo k10 power plant,if it even can be done :huh: . Plus, I am not a big fan of messing with the weight/balance of a car or messing with motor mounts. Forgive me if I am 100% wrong on this one, but just at first glance it seemed that this would be an easier swap to do with a regular k10.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:37 pm
Posts: 784
Location: Palmdale, Ca
I'm sure you'd still have to fab motor and trans mounts anyways. That k10 trans probably has a hydraulic throw out bearing trans so you'd have to fab a master and slave along with a shifter mount if its cable shifted. Then you'd have to have axles made. You'd need that cars harness and ecu too. Can those computers be tuned? If not you'd need an aftermarket ecu or at the very least a piggyback. Like Dattman said, it's just as much work as swapping any other fwd motor and trans. Not sure what you would gain over a properly built g10t??

Also, I'm not sure, but I seriously doubt any g10 part would interchange with that motor.

_________________
1987 Chevrolet Sprint Turbo under construction


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
I cant find anyone to sell me a g10t... I am willing to travel almost anywhere in the ontario area, I am over near the thumb area in Michigan. I keep posting and still no answer :) so I have been playing around with possibilities I guess :drunk: I agree that the g10t is the best scenario, just gotta wait and find one I guess. Thanks guys!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:16 pm 
Offline
Suzuki Elder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
there's every possibility that you haven't been patient enough to score a g10t. you keep flitting about with this precept, then another - nobody is real sure just what it is you are shooting for.

i communicated with a member on your behalf about a g10t and before we knew it, you were off looking for twincam parts, then some jdm wierdness that we don't deal with. :huh:

a mk2 (89-91) turbo3 is going to come from canada. you will have to make arrangements for it's importation to michigan unless you make arrangements to take a trip into canada to pick one up. you can scare one up, there are some parts threads that you haven't looked into where you could score some bits and pieces.

i'm not being harsh, i've done this thing so i sort of know the drill. if you want a turbo3, get a plan together and do the search. be prepared to pay a fair price, get ready to rebuild an engine, line up all the controls, etc. timing is everything so you have to be ready to pull the trigger on a deal when you come across one. the turbo3 was a canadian only market item so parts for them aren't easy to come by in the usa.

teamswift is likely to be the one place you will find this stuff, too. there are only maybe 6 guys in the usa who are into the mk2 turbo3 and we are all in the same boat. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:11 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
3 days and nobody will sell you a G1.0T
WOW.!

I actively looked for two yrs before I scored my first G1.0T
I'm feeling ya ...Tell ya what I'll do.
Come bring a small wad of cash (very small) and a trailer I will hook you up........WOW 3 day's...COME ON.!
With video......and no I wont ship......jv&s

_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
I appreciate the constructive criticism t3 ragtop. I wasn't trying to come off as just aiming wildly on what I was looking for, I had just found some interesting things when I was searching online(or so I thought) and thought you guys might have run into this stuff before. I love to learn from the guys who know :D . The AWD setup and the g10t is still the main focus, I guess I just wanted to learn as much as I could and came off looking like the kid in the candy store who wants everything lol! My old sergeant on the flight line used to tell me,"you can't learn anything unless you ask questions" so thats pretty much what I was doing. I'll continue looking, no big deal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
OK, if you got the engine I got the money. But I am not driving out to Washington. You must be out of your ever-loving mind. Maybe I should just scrap the whole project and go with a nice toyota build since they seem to not have a "beyonce" syndrome going on over there. JV&S... yeah right

I do want to thank everyone else for helping me out....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:39 pm 
Offline
@ssclown
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 687
Location: seattle
wyattae2002 wrote:
OK, if you got the engine I got the money. But I am not driving out to Washington. You must be out of your ever-loving mind. Maybe I should just scrap the whole project and go with a nice toyota build since they seem to not have a "beyonce" syndrome going on over there. JV&S... yeah right

I do want to thank everyone else for helping me out....


You want power right? Or do you really want a turbo?
Have you considered dropping the Canadian Cash on a 3TECH head package and building up the bottom end. I can tell you I'm into my "build" for around $1000.00 as of right now I say "BUILD" lightly because I have not put it together yet.YEP THATS PARTS AND MACHINE SHOP WORK.
Have you considered one last idea wire in one of those high velocity fans in your air intake. Ebay has them the good ones run around $80.00 and then you could record a turbo blow off sound and when you take the line hit play on your stereo. There are ways. You can make it happen!!
Now i know what you are thinking "come on yummy that's just bullshit" Well it's not
Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ols0kIsHo

_________________
You can love your dog ..Just don't love your dog.!
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm
Posts: 33
Location: michigan
I would say that my biggest objective was to build performance and not compromise the great mpg's of the metro. I mean, c'mon that is the ONLY advantage of a metro/sprint/firefly.... If you are trying to drag race this car like I have seen some of these guys do and now only have like 10 mpg and have to use 100 octane race fuel... seriously?! These are fun little cars, but street demons.... nahhhhhh. Hell, I am not married to the Idea of a turbo(btw that was a HILARIOUS video), but from my experience working with VW TDI setups, I know there is some great performance and mileage potential to be had.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:19 am 
Offline
@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
Location: not here
t3 ragtop wrote:

a mk2 (89-91) turbo3 is going to come from canada. you will have to make arrangements for it's importation to michigan unless you make arrangements to take a trip into canada to pick one up. you can scare one up, there are some parts threads that you haven't looked into where you could score some bits and pieces.:



Why would anyone want to buy a MK2 turbo? If you were looking to buy a turbo would you not buy a Mk1 turbo with its far superior hemi head? I read somewhere, probably on teamswift, that the '87 and '88 Mark1 turbos, built in Japan, have a very good and expensive hemi head and that from '89 on when these turbos were built in the 50/50 joint venture with GM that GM ditched the expensive to make MK1 hemi head and replaced it with a simplified cheaper to make head that's not as good.

The only reason I own any geos, swifts, sprints or fireflies built after 1988 is because they are the 4door sedan version with a trunk that I can conceal stuff in. You can't conceal too much stuff in a hatchback.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:14 am 
Offline
Suzuki Elder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
don't be so quick to discount a mk2 turbo3.

the second gen turbo3 engines are very nice. they don't require valve lash adjustments and at stock boost they make power as well as the mk1 turbo3.

there are some control improvements that make the mk2 turbo3 systems better and they are more compatible with mk2/3 cars which also have chassis refinements that the mk1 cars don't have.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:29 am 
Offline
@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
Location: not here
t3 ragtop wrote:
don't be so quick to discount a mk2 turbo3.

the second gen turbo3 engines are very nice. they don't require valve lash adjustments and at stock boost they make power as well as the mk1 turbo3.

there are some control improvements that make the mk2 turbo3 systems better and they are more compatible with mk2/3 cars which also have chassis refinements that the mk1 cars don't have.



Personally I prefer the Mark1 type valves that need to be adjusted. I think the solid valve lifting mechanism is better than something that involves hydraulics.

I didn't realize there were control improvements to the turbo system itself. But all these so called " improvements " make the Mark2 two or three hundred pounds heavier which to me is the opposite of an improvement.

My 96 Geo has an " improved " electro hydraulic controlled automatic transmission whereas both my 87 and 88 Sprint and Firefly with automatic transmissions have the " unimproved " hydraulic only controlled transmission. The unimproved automatic transmissions in my Mk1 automatics both work flawlessly whereas the " improved" automatic transmission in my 96 Geo has no reverse or second gear. And both the Mk1 automatics have way more miles on them than the 96 Geo.

Do all the control improvements in the Mk2 turbo compensate for the extra 200 or 300 pounds of unecessary crap a Mark2 has to lug around and do these control improvements more than compensate for the Mark2s cheaper, shittier, inferior cylinder head?

As the comparisons of the automatic transmissions illustrates sometimes these control improvements add more crap that breaks down or goes wrong in a quarter century old car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:08 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
I'm going to resurect this thread as I have done quite a bit of research on this in the last week or two and will save starting a new thread

The K10b is the new and current model that powers many of Suzuki's smaller models worldwide, it is a twincam 3 cyl engine, 73mm bore, 79.5mm stroke and has a timing chain, no more cam belts, pumps out a very creditable 68 bhp and 90nm, the brand new models even have variable valve timing, haven't found a revised hp figure for the vvt, the new k series is designed to be smoother, quieter and more efficent, great I thought, perfect to mount into an austin mini like this guy has started.

Painted green as thats what colour mini engines are, poorly disguised :lol:
Attachment:
100_0887.jpg
100_0887.jpg [ 124.01 KIB | Viewed 6808 times ]


I picked up a gearbox from a k12 which is the equivalent 4 cyl model, only difference is the k10b has the clutch lever on the top like our cars and the k12 has the lever at the bottom and thats probably as a result of the car it's in, k12 came from a wagon R.

Now for the bad news!!! K series bellhousings are quite different from G series and even though 1st to 4th in the K series box is exactly the same as 1st to 4th in a G series box you can't mix and match.
Attachment:
Nov 24 001s.jpg
Nov 24 001s.jpg [ 132.99 KIB | Viewed 6808 times ]

G13 on the left, cable shift K12 on the right, electronic speed sensor is interchangible, reverse sensor the same, casing halfs same thickness, 5th gear cover shallower on the K box.
What you can't see is the centerline of the diff is moved over 1' AWAY from the centre of the car :roll: G series inner cvs fit into the k10 diff but the seals are larger so won't seal up, you'll need K series inner cvs.
Attachment:
Nov 24 008s.jpg
Nov 24 008s.jpg [ 149.38 KIB | Viewed 6808 times ]

You'll notice the top bolt holes are narrower on the top of the K bellhousing and the starter motor bolt holes are 10mm closer together.
Layout of the gears is the same even though shift forks are different, 1st to 4th gears are EXACTLY the same, same ratio's, completely interchangible as far as I can tell, high speed syncroniser and 5th gear syncroniser hubs are identical but the low speed syncro hub has a lower reverse gear built in.

What they have done is slim down 5th gear so input shaft and counter shaft are 5mm shorter, not only that my thoughts of using the 4.27 final drive disappeared when I saw the crownwheel and diff, turned on it's head :(
Attachment:
Nov 24 036s.jpg
Nov 24 036s.jpg [ 154.02 KIB | Viewed 6808 times ]


Rather disappointing, gearbox is quite limiting in regards to transplanting these great little engines, while you could swap in closer ratio 3rd and 4th gears from proper gti's you wouldn't be able to do gti 5th gear without modding, final drive and lsd's would have to be custom made, for an Austin Mini a 3.52 final drive is required to run with 10' wheels so there goes my interest in this engine :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 2
Location: Australia
Dattman wrote:
I'm going to resurect this thread as I have done quite a bit of research on this in the last week or two and will save starting a new thread

The K10b is the new and current model that powers many of Suzuki's smaller models worldwide, it is a twincam 3 cyl engine, 73mm bore, 79.5mm stroke and has a timing chain, no more cam belts, pumps out a very creditable 68 bhp and 90nm, the brand new models even have variable valve timing, haven't found a revised hp figure for the vvt, the new k series is designed to be smoother, quieter and more efficent, great I thought, perfect to mount into an austin mini like this guy has started.

Painted green as thats what colour mini engines are, poorly disguised :lol:
Attachment:
100_0887.jpg



Image

Dattman would you happen to know the dimensions of a K10B engine and gearbox? I'm interested in using one in a project but don't know how much room I need.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:37 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
No sorry, I'm guessing the k10b is 15-20mm longer overall than the 3 cyl g10 and the gearbox is 10mm shorter so there won't be much difference, the main place for extra bulk is the twincam head.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 2
Location: Australia
Thanks mate. I guess I'll just have to take a tape measure to a car yard that has one on the lot.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group