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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:48 pm 
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Location: westville nj
Can someone tell me what the gap should be on the plugs for a 1988 Sprint turbo? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:40 am 
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.042
NGK BPR6ES-11 OEM or
BPR6EY-11 V-power.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/s ... p?mode=nml

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:44 am 
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Location: westville nj
Thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:50 am 
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You'll notice that the gap is smaller than the normally aspirated
.042 vs. .045

It is nice that the spark plug manufacturer posts this info, as I've
not come accross it ever in any manual, they just use the same
for turbo and n/a. Though in the past, the NGK site did not
have the different gap specs as I recall, they must have revised
it in the last few years.

If you're anywhere close in the gap range, it will work fine and
you probably won't notice a thing. However there are many on
this site that will tell you different. As boost pressures go up,
gap gets smaller...Some of us with modified Turbo Sprints will
tell you we are running between .025-.030 Big difference!

I bought my T3 new and for the first decade or so, just
ran the n/a spec gap and was just fine as I didn't know
any better. When I started messing around with other T3's
I was told more in the range of .030-.035 from some
of the turbo experts.

For every day driving the NGK site stuff is fine,
since they make the plugs. And stick with Phil's
recommendation on the OE style spark plug.
Most of us have found these cars don't like fancy
spark plugs.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Turbo here. NGK VR6 plugs.

Tried .042 after reading the manufacturer specs but found it runs like a slug when you really kick things up. The extra compression created by a turbo motor can literally blow out the candle leading to a rich burn. Especially if you have over sized pistons and a rebuilt engine. I now have mine set at .030, and it runs best this way. I learned, most Turbo's need a smaller gap to keep more fire in the combustion chamber. I also found out the "generic spacing" information indicated in places like the factory service manual are not intended for turbo charged engines. The information provided is often "cut and pasted" from other sources.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:09 pm 
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White Raptor wrote:
Turbo here. NGK VR6 plugs.

Tried .042 after reading the manufacturer specs but found it runs like a slug when you really kick things up. The extra compression created by a turbo motor can literally blow out the candle leading to a rich burn. Especially if you have over sized pistons and a rebuilt engine. I now have mine set at .030, and it runs best this way. I learned, most Turbo's need a smaller gap to keep more fire in the combustion chamber. I also found out the "generic spacing" information indicated in places like the factory service manual are not intended for turbo charged engines. The information provided is often "cut and pasted" from other sources.


Here's a good explanation for your problem:



Keep your eye on the fuel map (closest to him).

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Very good info on that vid.

Wish our cars had a diagnostic connector :cry:

FYI, a stock turbo sprint does not have the ability
to "blow out the candle".

At sea level, I have not been able to discern any performace
variable regardless of plug gap on my stock turbo.
Perhaps you are dealing with additional variables,
as well as the type of plug you are running.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:32 am 
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So you're suggesting spark gap is irrelavant because the O2 sensor will compensate the fuel mix accordingly. Not sure I follow this logic. The ignition system is about making fire in the wire. It has to be designed to perform this function in an adequate manner in all driving conditions. Not just when the car runs rich or lean, but rather both.

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VelociRAPTOR (pron.: /vɨˈlɒsɨræptər/; Velociraptor (commonly shortened to 'raptor') translates to mean "SWIFT seizer," It is now extinct, but was a most famous and legendary fighting dinosaur animal specimen.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Not trying to chew you out, but most people in 2013 follow these:

Image

Image

Let's see, you've got multiport fuel injection and a turbo...hmmm.
Is there some reason your engine won't be following the above charts?

Back in the days of carburetors, if you had a dual pumper 650 Holley or something like that stacked on your little 1.0, I might believe your image of the fuel putting out the spark, even though that's really not likely. Your coil will continue to spark that plug and the plug will continue to try and detonate. By 1987 they pretty much had a grip on how to supply spark to a plug. Old VR4 will tell you that even before that they were reading cylinder compression without pulling a spark plug. (You probably know that.) The way they do it and the theory is more of an interest to people like JellyBeanDriver, wherever he is. Pretty clever those auto techs. Hook up two wires and give you compression test results on all cylinders. Man, what will they think of next? On board computers? :oops:

However, let's play the devil's advocate; give 'quenching' a google.
:idea:

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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Perhaps someone could shed some light on why dozens upon hundreds of leading and well respected turbo equipment manufacturers and re-builders (as of 2013) are ALL recommending "smaller" spark plug gaps in the range of .028 and .035 for turbo charged engines, including this one.

Perhaps they are all wrong, and the (1987) service manual recommendation of .040 - .042 is right for both turbo and non turbo cars alike instead?

Surely, they can't be the same exact gap spacing for each car version.

Just sayin. :)

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VelociRAPTOR (pron.: /vɨˈlɒsɨræptər/; Velociraptor (commonly shortened to 'raptor') translates to mean "SWIFT seizer," It is now extinct, but was a most famous and legendary fighting dinosaur animal specimen.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Gonna have to agree with Raptor. Running a larger gap on a forced injection application will lead to some spark loss. I know this because running anything over 15lbs on my old 2.2's needed a heck of a downgap, and colder plugs as well. For stock boost, .38 and a standard temperature range.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:16 am 
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Location: Palmdale, Ca
:vibe:
White Raptor wrote:
Perhaps someone could shed some light on why dozens upon hundreds of leading and well respected turbo equipment manufacturers and re-builders (as of 2013) are ALL recommending "smaller" spark plug gaps in the range of .028 and .035 for turbo charged engines, including this one.

Perhaps they are all wrong, and the (1987) service manual recommendation of .040 - .042 is right for both turbo and non turbo cars alike instead?

Surely, they can't be the same exact gap spacing for each car version.

Just sayin. :)

JamalSpelling wrote:
You'll notice that the gap is smaller than the normally aspirated
.042 vs. .045

It is a smaller gap for the turbos. Not much smaller because of the low compression and the low boost with the factory specs.

JamalSpelling wrote:
As boost pressures go up, gap gets smaller...Some of us with modified Turbo Sprints will tell you we are running between .025-.030 Big difference!


White Raptor wrote:
So you're suggesting spark gap is irrelavant because the O2 sensor will compensate the fuel mix accordingly.

I think he's saying because of the stock low boost pressure and low compression it will not "blow out the candle".

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Yes, that is correct.

Quote:
The ignition system is about making fire in the wire

Yes, think of this as constant. Assuming everything else is in good
working order, the only way you will directly affect the spark is
by changing gap.

Quote:
So you're suggesting spark gap is irrelavant because the O2 sensor will compensate the fuel mix accordingly

On these cars, minor gap adjustment will probably go unnoticed. However, if you find that your car
runs best on VR4's with a gap of .030, then go with it. Each on of these cars may run slightly different
due to variables. I have 5 of them and not one of them runs exactly like the other.

Remember, the O2 sensor does not control fuel at WOT, only at idle and cruise, the engineers
have designed this car for fuel enrichment regardless of 02 @ WOT - this can be further controlled
by injector sizing and fuel pressure. There are many other variables that will work in tandem with
spark that affect fueling.



Phil's replies tend to be more of riddles, but he is providing information that will make you think
and answer your own questions. However off topic they may seem at times, there is generally
some relativaty.


Quote:
hundreds of leading and well respected turbo equipment manufacturers and re-builders (as of 2013) are ALL recommending "smaller" spark plug gaps in the range of .028 and .035

As of 2013? This car was designed in 1987 and well ahead of the curve, but certainly not comparable
to anything present day. This car is unique and has a cult following, but the nuances and attributes of
this vehicle are different than most and cannot be put into a general classification with all others.
All references are assuming you are running a generally stock T3.

Quote:
Gonna have to agree with Raptor. Running a larger gap on a forced injection application will lead to some spark loss. I know this because running anything over 15lbs on my old 2.2's needed a heck of a downgap, and colder plugs as well

Although correct, we are talking stock T3. And making a general comparison of a 6PSI 3 cyl 1.0 Turbo G10 to a 15PSI Olds 2.2
is irrelevant for this discussion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Thanks.... Good insight and well stated.

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VelociRAPTOR (pron.: /vɨˈlɒsɨræptər/; Velociraptor (commonly shortened to 'raptor') translates to mean "SWIFT seizer," It is now extinct, but was a most famous and legendary fighting dinosaur animal specimen.


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