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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:52 am 
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Location: Victoria, BC
Hey all,

Thank you in advance for reading. I'm making a fresh thread for this because I want discussion specifically geared at my platform and strategy for my car. Every build is unique, and using the search function isn't ideal for turbo codes as they are fewer than four characters in length and are thus excluded. This will be my second turbo upgrade project, after a very successful Mazda DOHC 1.6L project with an enlarged RHB5 VJ11 turbo that I've been working on for the past couple years.

The goal for this MK1 G10T build is going to be sleeper power without any compromises in reliability. Once I complete my engine restoration, tune-up, and feel the car is ready for modifications, here is the plan to get the engine breathing better before I consider upgrading the turbo.

Please evaluate and critique the following as you see fit:
1. DIY hard intercooler piping
2. Mazda MX-6 front mount intercooler
3. Mitsubishi Eclipse blow off valve
4. Ported and polished cylinder head
5. 3Tech turbo performance camshaft
6. Custom made exhaust manifold
7. Ported and polished O2 housing
8. Turbo-back 2.25" exhaust

There's a lot I still have to address of course: providing adequate fuel for added boost, bypassing that pesky factory fuel cut, and looking at my bottom end's potential to safely hold both high boost and a larger turbo. Those things will take time, a lot of searching, and hopefully some help from you guys as well in the future. With all that in mind, here are my thoughts on picking a turbocharger:

Initially, I looked at the Mitsubishi TD04-09B. They're easy to find in most bigger junkyards, seem to flow well for the G10T when I plot out numbers on a compressor map, and also have good potential for upgrading too. One of said upgrades that intrigued me in particular was the production of a hybrid turbo using components from the Mitsubishi TD04-13G and to slide the CHRA/cold-side into the 9B. It's what the Mirage and 3000GT guys do for a bit of a boost boost.

So, bring forth the questions then I suppose. Please number your responses so I can keep track:

1. Any active members with a 9B/13G hybrid at present who I haven't been able to find yet?
2. At what point do the factory intake manifold and throttle body become a restriction?
3. How delayed will my spool be on a larger hybrid compared to a normal 9B or factory turbo?
4. Has anyone got a source for factory 3000GT 9B flanges? I can junkyard chop and weld if needs be.
5. Has anyone got a source for factory Mk1 turbo exhaust manifold flanges? I can junkyard chop and weld if needs be.

Thanks very much for reading and any help you can provide. Feel free to shoot me any relevant links to help generate interest and discussion. Cheers,

Aaron

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1990 Ford Festiva Turbo - B6T Swap, 2.5" Exhaust, MX6 Intercooler, Hard Piping, K&N Filter, VJ11 Turbo
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:10 am 
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My best performing turbo, out the five driver turbos I have, every one of which I've blown the headgasket on by driving the piss out of them, had an upgrade already made to it by the previous owner. I think this upgrade is the reason this '88 suzuki turbo is the best performing of the 5 turbo MK1s I have. ( The other 4 are bone stock.)
The previous owner, who was a guy who's right into turbos, had spliced in some turbo valve out of an Mazda MX6. It required welding a small stainless steel pipe onto the existing factory stainless steel pipe, among other stuff. What this valve and added piping do is reroute the stock blowoff valve. Instead of the blowoff being wasted by being dumped into the exhaust, its rerouted and fed back into the turbo setup someplace. I'll post some pictures of it. This seems like a fairly simple upgrade with good performance gains and worth doing.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:15 am 
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Quote:
What this valve and added piping do is reroute the stock blowoff valve



Turbo 3's don't have a blowoff valve.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:30 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Quote:
What this valve and added piping do is reroute the stock blowoff valve



Turbo 3's don't have a blowoff valve.



Well then what do they have to limit overboost? I'd be interested in what you have to say about this mod when I post a picture of it. I know its got something to do with boost control because I accidentally broke the plastic MX6 part when I was removing the oil filler cap one time and instead of going to mazda and getting a new part I did a " temporary fix" of stuffing two large bolts into the two pieces of rubber tubing that were attached to the MX6 part. The car ran unbelievably fast after that, because I guess I removed any sort of boost limiter, but it blew the head gasket within a few days.

My description of this mod is probably wrong but however it works it made this '88 forsa turbo the best performer of my five turbos. And when I say best performer I mean when it worked properly, not after I broke it and stuffed the bolts in the tubing.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:02 pm 
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The VAF has a fuel cut that kicks in around ~13-13.5psi. The mk1's do have a pop off valve that opens at ~8psi to prevent surging boost pressure back through the turbo when the throttle is shut while there is pressure in the intercooler (it's attached to the ic). And you do have to shim the spring if you want to run more than stock boost or it will open and limit you to ~8psi. BOV's don't dump into the exhaust. They are either recirculated and dump back into the intake after the maf but before the turbo or they vent into atmosphere. And BOV's are not what you use to limit overboost. You're think of the wastegate. BOV's should only open when vacuum is applied to the back of the diaphragm, when the throttle is shut. The wastegate is what controls how much boost the turbo puts out. And the wastegate does dump into the exhaust. But I would never reroute the already burnt super hot air dumped by the wastegate back into the intake.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:35 pm 
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There is a pressure relief valve on the side of the intercooler. There is no fuel cut related to boost pressure. The VAF has no idea what boost levels are.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Quote:
Instead of the blowoff being wasted by being dumped into the exhaust, its rerouted and fed back into the turbo setup someplace

You cannot do this on an MK1 G10T, it does not work. I tried and nearly blew off the oil cap.

Quote:
2. At what point do the factory intake manifold and throttle body become a restriction?

I have had luck with modified boost up to 15psi, you would need to go much higher to worry
about any restriction from the OE intake. It is the air intake tubing that will provide the most restriction
when you start to move more air, the hard piping should be much larger and you will need to
modify the airbox for more flow, then you have no choice but you will have to reduce hard piping
just before the throttle plate to fit the OE opening. But think of it like a hose nozzle, it restricts
it, but will increase velocity...you just have to have the increased flow to back it up.

Quote:
3. How delayed will my spool be on a larger hybrid compared to a normal 9B or factory turbo?

Hybrids are designed to reduce lag, however you will never have the response of the factory RHB32 VZ5
turbo, they are so small and boost is instantaneous. I have upgraded to a KKK 04 and with all the extra
piping and massive FMIC there is considerable lag. I have tamed it a bit using an AEM EBC which works well.
I am looking into a hybrid for my next project, but nonetime soon.

Quote:
The goal for this MK1 G10T build is going to be sleeper power without any compromises in reliability............
There's a lot I still have to address of course: providing adequate fuel for added boost, bypassing that pesky factory fuel cut, and looking at my bottom end's potential to safely hold both high boost and a larger turbo.


To be reliable and simple you need to keep the stock ECM, in order to tune it you need to install a wideband
air fuel ratio gauge and tune your fuel needs by selecting injector sizes and upgrading to a high flow fuel pump.
Bottem end is good to go unless it is tired as the stock Turbo rods are more robust than the N/A, but recommend
you switch to Vitara pistons which will give you a slightly lower compression ration and allow for potential
higher boost with less chance of detonation.

Quote:
There is no fuel cut related to boost pressure. The VAF has no idea what boost levels are.

The VAF does initiate fuel cut not based on boost, but flow. Too much flow opens up the vane fully and initiates
the fuel cut, you have to tighten the spring to compensate and then if it's too tight you need to drill out the
bypass valve and open it up so you can idle. Still not a 100% fix and it's touchy, but better than OE settings.
You cannot physically block the valve from opening fully because you need it in that area which initiates the
fuel enrichment just before it reaches fuel cut. Or you can switch to an MR2 MAF which reportedly works
plug and play, I cannot verify yet I have plans to do this soon.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:07 pm 
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JamalSpelling wrote:
I have had luck with modified boost up to 15psi, you would need to go much higher to worry
about any restriction from the OE intake. It is the air intake tubing that will provide the most restriction
when you start to move more air, the hard piping should be much larger and you will need to
modify the airbox for more flow, then you have no choice but you will have to reduce hard piping
just before the throttle plate to fit the OE opening. But think of it like a hose nozzle, it restricts
it, but will increase velocity...you just have to have the increased flow to back it up.

Perfect, great answer. I'll be sure to do a good job on the intake tubing. I'll try 2" piping probably I think as the inlet and outlet of the MX-6 intercooler are that size I believe. If the throttle is smaller than that, then a reducer coupling will do the trick.

JamalSpelling wrote:
Hybrids are designed to reduce lag, however you will never have the response of the factory RHB32 VZ5
turbo, they are so small and boost is instantaneous. I have upgraded to a KKK 04 and with all the extra
piping and massive FMIC there is considerable lag. I have tamed it a bit using an AEM EBC which works well.
I am looking into a hybrid for my next project, but nonetime soon.

Yep - sounds good. The 9B/13G looks like a pretty good mix... but we'll see how things go I suppose. I'll start playing with the factory turbo and see how I like it before I get serious with the upgrades.

JamalSpelling wrote:
To be reliable and simple you need to keep the stock ECM, in order to tune it you need to install a wideband
air fuel ratio gauge and tune your fuel needs by selecting injector sizes and upgrading to a high flow fuel pump.
Bottem end is good to go unless it is tired as the stock Turbo rods are more robust than the N/A, but recommend
you switch to Vitara pistons which will give you a slightly lower compression ration and allow for potential
higher boost with less chance of detonation.

Perfect. Planning on a Walbro but haven't figured out which install kit is the most compatible with the stock hardware. Sounds manageable though... I've seen builds on this forum over 150whp with the stock bottom end, which sounds phenomenal. I'll grab one of those no-blow gaskets you mentioned in my other thread - are they the same 85-88 and 89+?

JamalSpelling wrote:
The VAF does initiate fuel cut not based on boost, but flow. Too much flow opens up the vane fully and initiates
the fuel cut, you have to tighten the spring to compensate and then if it's too tight you need to drill out the
bypass valve and open it up so you can idle. Still not a 100% fix and it's touchy, but better than OE settings.
You cannot physically block the valve from opening fully because you need it in that area which initiates the
fuel enrichment just before it reaches fuel cut. Or you can switch to an MR2 MAF which reportedly works
plug and play, I cannot verify yet I have plans to do this soon.

I look forward to hearing more about that MR2 swap for sure... keep us all posted!

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1990 Ford Festiva Turbo - B6T Swap, 2.5" Exhaust, MX6 Intercooler, Hard Piping, K&N Filter, VJ11 Turbo
1987 Suzuki Forsa Turbo


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Quote:
Perfect. Planning on a Walbro but haven't figured out which install kit is the most compatible with the stock hardware. Sounds manageable though... I've seen builds on this forum over 150whp with the stock bottom end, which sounds phenomenal. I'll grab one of those no-blow gaskets you mentioned in my other thread - are they the same 85-88 and 89+?


There is only one style for the 3 Cyl. He does offer them special order in aluminim and stainless as
well, but the sealing surfaces need to be perfect.

Don't waste time with an install kit for a Walbro, you just need to shim the mounting bracket
as the Walbro OD is thinner than the OE pump.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:04 pm 
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Location: renton, wa
Dont want to hijack this thread but its a turbo question. Is there a alternative turbo that can be run that is bolt on? Not looking to make massive numbers just looking to keep the response of the boost.

What about this little guy looks almost the same and is cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTORCYCLE-QUAD ... 282wt_1170


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:44 pm 
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^^^^^ I have no direct experience of the RHB31, all of my turbos are 1987 or 1988, which is the RHB32, but I seem to recall reading elsewhere on teamswift that the very first turbo MK1s, maybe 1985, used the RHB31. I also remember seeing a picture somewhere, and I think it was from Australia, of a very early, 1985 probably, Cultus turbo and it didn't have MPFI. It had a tin box around a carburetor which was pressurized by a turbo, probably this RHB31.

I seem to remember reading that the RHB31 has smaller flanges and openings and that it will only be a direct bolt on if you have the earlier manifolds ( Maybe 1985 and 1986? ) which were made to fit the RHB31. The later 1987 and 1988 manifolds will only fit the RHB32 because the openings and flanges are bigger. I suppose you could fabricate manifolds but if I'm right about the RHB31 openings being smaller, and therefore more restrictive, why bother? You'd probably be better off dropping 1200 bucks to buy a brand new RHB32 which is a direct bolt on to the 1987 and 1988 manifolds. If I ever wore out all six of the RHB32s I own that's what I'd do because I have 7 complete 1987 and 1988 turbo engines. I'd sooner spend 1200 bucks to buy a turbo that is a straight up bolt on to the stuff I already have than waste a huge amount of time and money(either of which I don't have much of anyway) trying to fabricate manifolds and whatnot to fit sometinhg other than a RHB32.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:51 am 
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Where would I be able to purchase a new one?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:18 am 
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^^^^^At some place called Turbo.com I think it was. Somewhere there is a thread about some teamswifter in Texas who had a turbo car but ended up parting it out because the turbocharger was toast. In that thread he mentions the name of some place, in the United States, which sells brand new turbochargers and among them is a brand new IHI RHB32 for 1100 and something bucks. I believe JamalSpelling has a post where he was gloating over some of his plunder from this car so he could probably direct you to the exact post which mentions the outfit selling the brand new IHI RHB32s.

What I would really like to find is someone who speaks Japanese and could phone around in Japan on Skype to see if RHB32s can be ordered brand new from Japan. I did encounter a little Japanese cutie a while back who could have done this but shortly thereafter I met a 22 year old extremely high maintenance bitch with a beautiful body who spent the next fourteeen months living with me and soaking up all my money and all my time 'til I gave her the boot so Suzuki tinkering has been on the back burner 'til recently.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:41 am 
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My farts are more powerful than that RHB1

If you're serious about buying a new RHB32
they can be found. Any reputable IHI dealer can
order them for you. IHI imports them in very limited
quantities, and you will likely have to wait a few
months.

If you look hard enough you will also find reman ones
here in the US for around 1/2 the cost of new, but
you have to look very hard.

For about double the cost of a new turbo,
you could get an aftermarket setup and almost
double the HP, but takes more time, skill, patience
and luck. Problem is your motors probably weak
and if you go overboosting it, it doesn't last long
then you end up doing the motor anyway, so then
you're into it for 3-4 Grand $ and 6-12 months.
and then it just doesn't stop there.....

Just sayin'................

download/file.php?id=24415


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:31 pm 
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^^^Might the day be soon upon us when you will be telling us exactly where you got that and how much you paid for it? Or will you just keep showing us pictures of the box it came in?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:54 pm 
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$1100

I've been quoted as high as $1800


Quote:
Any reputable IHI dealer can
order them for you.

There is no 'secret' source, they ultimately come from
the same place, it is IHI USA that imports them.

Since the cost is more than most people pay for this Econobox,
not many people owning these cars want to shell out that
kinda dough. But we've come to a point now where serious
enthusiasts who are holding on to these pocket rockets
are willing to do what it takes with part costs not necessarily
being the deciding factor.

Perfect example, Wizewun sourcing OE seat fabric and paying
for professional recovering which totalled almost 2G's.
You are only going to put in that kind of investment if you
are planning on keeping it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:57 pm 
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^^^ Thanks for the info. The reason I was asking is because I googled IHI dealer B.C. and came up with some outfit someplace that sells IHI mini excavatiors. I have six RHB32 turbos which all seem to work fine so I won't be running out and buying a new one tomorrow but I just thought it would be nice to know where to buy a new one in case I stumbled across a pot of gold or whatever.And I do plan on driving Mk1s for as long as possible which is why I am building up my own parts supply. I have eleven Mk1s


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Good info, looks like i will be sticking with the rhb32.

^you wanna sell me that one in the box :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:35 am 
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Found a shop, http://www.keicarshop.com/

Sent them an email awaiting a response.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:12 am 
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coasterII wrote:
My best performing turbo, out the five driver turbos I have, every one of which I've blown the headgasket on by driving the piss out of them, had an upgrade already made to it by the previous owner. I think this upgrade is the reason this '88 suzuki turbo is the best performing of the 5 turbo MK1s I have. ( The other 4 are bone stock.)
The previous owner, who was a guy who's right into turbos, had spliced in some turbo valve out of an Mazda MX6. It required welding a small stainless steel pipe onto the existing factory stainless steel pipe, among other stuff. What this valve and added piping do is reroute the stock blowoff valve. Instead of the blowoff being wasted by being dumped into the exhaust, its rerouted and fed back into the turbo setup someplace. I'll post some pictures of it. This seems like a fairly simple upgrade with good performance gains and worth doing.


I forgot all about this, but now that I'm back into the picture taking and posting mode and Mk1 fixing mode I am going to take a picture of this and post it tomorrow morning.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Here's the pictures of the turbo upgrade on my 88 Forsa and a picture of a bone stock turbo Forsa for Comparison.
This is the fastest of my five Mk1 turbos so I think this is a good upgrade. This upgrade is BROKEN!! right now though. It blocked the oil filler cap so I was pulling the rubber hose off the plastic NipponDenso thing? ( I don't know what it is but the previous owner told me it came off a Mazda MX6 Turbo). When I broke the plastic tube off the nippondenso thing I plugged the rubber hose connected to it with the 1/2 inch drive socket extension you see sticking out of it. The car was then even faster but I blew out the headgasket because I think it was basically uncontrolled unregulated boost at that point. I think I can just get a new NIppondenso thing and install it and put in a new headgasket and the car will be fine because I parked it right after I blew the gasket. I'd appreciate any comments and idea as to what this mod does because I don't really understand it but this car goes faster than my four other Mk1 turbos which are all bone stock.


Last edited by coasterII on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:32 pm 
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This is a closer up picture of the NipponDenso thing that came off a Mazda MX6 Turbo showing where its plastic tube broke off and the rubber hose that was connected to it that I plugged with a half inch drive extension.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Another picture of the NipponDenso thing where the part numbers are easier to read. that's the end of a half inch drive extension plugging the rubber hose that was connected to the plastic pipe coming out of the side of the NipponDenso thing. You can clearly see where the plastic pipe btoke off of the NipponDenso thing. I think the mazda part number was on that pipe so I hope I can find it again.
That smaller rubber tube plugged with a golf tee goes onto the metal tube you can see at the top of the NipponDenso thing.( the metal tube, white coloured in this picure, that connects to the golf teed rubber tube is quite fuzzy in this picture)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:46 pm 
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This top view shows more clearly the golf tee plugged rubber tube which is close by the shiny metal nipple it attaches to coming out of the top of the NipponDenso thing.

In this picture you can also more clearly how the NipponDenso thing is spliced into the rubber connecting the intercooler to the throttle body. That NiponDenso thing looks like it might be an expensive part so I'd like to know what adhesive could be used to attach a pipe to it so I can reconnect the rubber hose.
I couldn't find any adhesive that would work to fix a crack on a plastic radiator top tank and this NipponDenso thing plastic looks similar.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Another angle of the golf tee plugged tube and the nipple on the NipponDenso thing it attaches to:


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