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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:44 pm 
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Location: AZ
I've had my 88 Sprint Turbo for 7000 mi. so far & the whole time the green TURBO light always functioned. Still it seemed little happened when the green light came on, so I suspected the turbo might not be right. So I bought a vacuum/boost gauge at HFT and hooked it up here ,
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When I drove the car the vacuum was about -20 PSI and when the green TURBO light came on it was -1 PSI at best. It never went to positive PSI boost ,

1.) So is this boost gauge hooked up right and indicating the turbo needs to be accessed & looked at?

2.) Are there other things to looked at/check besides or before the actual Turbo?

3.) Will continued driving with a non-functioning turbo hurt the engine?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Sounds like you've been driving without functioning turbo.
Sol wrote:

1.) So is this boost gauge hooked up right and indicating the turbo needs to be accessed & looked at?

2.) Are there other things to looked at/check besides or before the actual Turbo?

3.) Will continued driving with a non-functioning turbo hurt the engine?


1.) I wouldn't hook it up there but it will show correct vacuum in that spot

2.) check the boost control actuator on the turbo (probably not the problem because even with it wide open you would get some boost at WOT)
3.) No , unless its dumping huge quantities of oil and coolant into the exhaust side but then its mostly harming everyone behind you :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:12 pm 
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DTM GTi wrote:

1.) I wouldn't hook it up there but it will show correct vacuum in that spot



Thanks for the reply! So where would you hook up a boost/vac line?
I figured it wasn't working, but not sure what the green dashboard Turbo light is measuring. I need to get at this, but because of my A/C (w/freon) & removing the condenser, it makes it complicated. Wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to get to/replace the Turbo this w/ the A/C intact?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Sol wrote:

Thanks for the reply! So where would you hook up a boost/vac line?
I figured it wasn't working, but not sure what the green dashboard Turbo light is measuring. I need to get at this, but because of my A/C (w/freon) & removing the condenser, it makes it complicated. Wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to get to/replace the Turbo this w/ the A/C intact?


I prefer to tap into the vacuum line going from brown vacuum splitter on top of the intake manifold to the fuel pressure regulator as you can see in the pics
Green light reflects calculation ECM does on basis of signal coming from air mass sensor
I've never pulled the turbo while it was in the car so Im not sure about doing it with condenser in place but it seems impossible considering turbo is almost touching the condenser. I removed engine/tranny several times without opening A/C system. Unbolt the compressor and leave it hanging on sway bar support and then pull everything out. Maybe if you disassemble the front end there is enough play in hoses to pull condenser away from turbo.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Sol wrote:
the green TURBO light always functioned.



I love that green TURBO light.
If my green TURBO light didn't work I wouldn't drive my car 'til I fixed it.
All five if my green TURBO lights work.
And all five of my turbos work.
The problem is four blown head gaskets and one fried knock sensor or distributor or coil. ( It misses badly after its warmed up for about ten minutes and gets so bad it stalls, but after it cools down it drives O.k. for another ten minutes, etc. etc.)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Turbo light is cool, but doesn't actually tell you if your turbo is working.
Boost gauge is a nice addition, I usually tap it into that same line coming
off the back of the plenum.

It's possible to remove the turbo with A/C without evacuating the system.
It's a pain but doable. You have to loosen/partly remove the upper cross bar/radiator support,
that should give you plenty of wiggle room with the condenser, and unfortunately
loosen the compressor as well. You may want to secure parts out of the way
with wire or bungee cords.

You may want to invest in a good quality 1/4" ratchet, set of various lenghth
locking extensions and a 12 mm swivel socket. A premium set of thin wall
combination wrenches is recommended as well, regular length and stubby.

Sounds like you've already diagnosed the Turbo, and probably won't do you any
good to remove it unless you think there's something stuck in there preventing
the turbine wheels from spinning, unless you have a backup turbo ready to go,
in which case you will also want some replacement studs handy, along with some
taps 'n dies and, stud removers and replacement fasteners and a plan for
some gaskets whether you source some OE ones or are forced to cut your own
out of thicker sheet aluminum, copper or brass.

You can find some good tips on turbo service here:
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=56235


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Location: AZ
JamalSpelling wrote:

Sounds like you've already diagnosed the Turbo, and probably won't do you any
good to remove it unless you think there's something stuck in there preventing
the turbine wheels from spinning, unless you have a backup turbo ready to go,
in which case you will also want some replacement studs handy, along with some
taps 'n dies and, stud removers and replacement fasteners and a plan for
some gaskets whether you source some OE ones or are forced to cut your own
out of thicker sheet aluminum, copper or brass.

You can find some good tips on turbo service here:
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=56235


Thanks for the link & A/C protocol. You're almost clairvoyant :shock: . My problem is it's my only car & the downtime cost/benefit is what I'm contemplating. It would be great if I went in, found it stuck/etc.and came out with a working turbo. Not sure how likely that is though? Still, if I knew what the problem was, I'd know how to address it. I'd be more inclined to deal with this if I had another turbo, in my hands, to replace if mine is bad. So I've been looking for used/rebuilt IHI RHB32 turbos, and was wondering, is that my only choice for direct replacement i.e. w/out manifold/exhaust etc. modifications? Also can a torch be used around the turbo to remove bolts/fasteners?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:04 pm 
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The post I linked had that problem from when the valve stem broke,
after overhauling I missed a piece of the valve stem that went in
the exhaust, after the overhaul one day it worked into the turbo.
I parked the car, got back in it and just like that no boost although
the turbo light was working fine. I installed a boost gauge to confirm.

Didn't know why till I yanked the turbo and the valve shrapnel fell out.
I had another one ready to go so I installed the rebuilt turbo anyway.

There is only the one style for replacement of the OE unit without
any other mods.

You can use a torch in some places, though I never used one.
Good quality penetrating oil works fine in combination with
good quality tools and lots of leverage (unit removed and work
done on the bench or in vise) I did have to cut the
heads of the downtube bolts once, only cause there was nothing
left to grip as the bolt head had deteriorated. The Lisle stud
remover also worked wonders on some stripped studs.

Hard to believe you're actually driving around with no boost?
Car is a gutless wonder without it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:45 pm 
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JamalSpelling wrote:

Hard to believe you're actually driving around with no boost?
Car is a gutless wonder without it.



But even without boost its still faster than walking, riding a bicycle, taking the bus, or a piggy back ride on a fat chick.

I once saw an '87 sprint turbo that had a carburetted Mk1 engine in it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Location: AZ
JamalSpelling wrote:
The post I linked had that problem from when the valve stem broke,
after overhauling I missed a piece of the valve stem that went in
the exhaust, after the overhaul one day it worked into the turbo.
I parked the car, got back in it and just like that no boost although
the turbo light was working fine. I installed a boost gauge to confirm.

Didn't know why till I yanked the turbo and the valve shrapnel fell out.
I had another one ready to go so I installed the rebuilt turbo anyway.

There is only the one style for replacement of the OE unit without
any other mods.

You can use a torch in some places, though I never used one.
Good quality penetrating oil works fine in combination with
good quality tools and lots of leverage (unit removed and work
done on the bench or in vise) I did have to cut the
heads of the downtube bolts once, only cause there was nothing
left to grip as the bolt head had deteriorated. The Lisle stud
remover also worked wonders on some stripped studs.

Hard to believe you're actually driving around with no boost?
Car is a gutless wonder without it.


Well since my ignorance is bliss, perhaps tis B a jolly when I'm wise, and get to experience a working turbo. Guess I have a gut half full of wonder outlook. :drunk:
Yeah I saw the valve stem piece in the thread & that & made me think hmmmm....maybe? Then I thought nah ..this car would never let me off that easy. Only got 700K on your car ??:roll: . :wink:

I'm leaning toward going in to have a look & then if need be, reassemble> get a replacement & w/ the second foray most of the bolts/work will be easier. Wondering also: used turbo or rebuilt turbo? i.e. do turbos last if properly maintained or do they have predictable failure times .. i.e if it's over 200K engine miles expect trouble in the next 50K?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:49 pm 
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It's a little hazy now,
but to the best of my recollection, I had the turbo rebuilt
somewhere around 200-300k miles. At that time there were
some cracks around the wastegate, but they rebuilt it and
I got another 200-300k miles on it. Then I swapped it for
a used turbo of another car where I upgraded. At that point
there was something wrong with it, I don't remember what,
and I ran that turbo for a few years before the shrapnel got
stuck in it, then swapped it out for a perfect rebuilt unit.

I had to free up the wastegate linkage a few times as it
started sticking when the car sat for months at a time, and
when I pulled it off the last time, there was a bit of perceptible
shaft play, but was still in working order.

I have always used synthetic oil and changed it religiously and
periodically had to tighten up bolts that loosened over time
where the downtube attaches, but they're relatively maintenance
free for their useful life, just keep the oil clean.

If you plan on keeping the car long term, and you're a die hard
like some of us are, then invest the $1000 and order a new
unit from a U.S. IHI distributor as rebuilts are pretty scarce.

I'm just wondering if your boost gauge is working correctly,
as these cars are almost undriveable at zero boost.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:36 am 
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Location: Arizona
You may want to look at this thread. Guy is selling a lot of Mk1 stuff including the turbo. No pics , no specs yet but hopefully he will post that too

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=57085


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Sol wrote:
do turbos last if properly maintained or do they have predictable failure times .. i.e if it's over 200K engine miles expect trouble in the next 50K?


I have five MK1 turbo cars with over 200,000 km. on them and all their turbos work fine. 4 of them have blown headgaskets and one has a minor spark problem. I have a sixth turbo which I was told works but just the other day I was looking at it and noticed it had a wastegate crack that was welded up but the crack also continues inside and its not welded inside. the turbo might still work though. I have a seventh turbo motor with a turbo on it but was told the turbo needs to be rebuilt.

So generally they seem to last a long time, over 200,000km and still going strong. I think you have to use synthetic oil and change it frequently to keep them in good shape. When a higher mileage car starts sucking oil past the valve seals and rings it ends up forming a big carbony oily blob on the turbo impellers, reducing turbo performance. Maybe your turbo impeller has a big carbony oily blob on it which is reducing performance.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:55 pm 
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JamalSpelling wrote:

I'm just wondering if your boost gauge is working correctly,
as these cars are almost undriveable at zero boost.


That's what I thought when I first hooked up the gauge, but then thought, why no noticeable kick when the light came on. So I check the gauge yesterday by blowing into the hose and my lungs were able to produce 2 PSI boost on the gauge (max adult male lung pressure is listed as 2.1 PSI http://www.sensorwiki.org/doku.php/sensors/air_pressure). So the gauge works and like I said before; the car is very drivable. Wondering what would make it almost undrivable at zero boost i.e. the mechanical cause/symptoms & would they just be there under (green light) boost conditions? Could it be the turbo works, but the boost pressure is escaping in the combustion chamber through marginal/bad seal/valve or rings etc.?

@DTM GTI thanks, I'm watching that thread.

@coasterll 7 Turbo cars/engines?? No wonder I can't find parts :mrgreen: My car doesn't burn oil, but I do know it wasn't driven for 4-5 months before I bought it (just started up every week or so). So maybe there's carbon or gum built up.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Sol wrote:
My car doesn't burn oil, but I do know it wasn't driven for 4-5 months before I bought it (just started up every week or so). So maybe there's carbon or gum built up.



And probably 11 or 12 or so turbo cylinder heads, 4 for sure warped and all the rest supposedly good used.

None of my cars burn oil. What happens is, and especially to mine, because I drove them with the accelerator pressed against the floorboard almost all the time ( hence the four blown headgaskets) is that blowby blows tons of oil through the PCV valve and into the induction system then it ends up forming this carbony blob on the turbo impeller. I noticed that the oil level in the oil pan drops considerably after a sustained blast down the freeway with the go pedal floored. One time I was removing the intercooler to install a new distributor cap and rotor and black oil came pouring out of the rubber tubes attached to the intercooler when I removed them.

That may be what's happening to yours. A big carbony oily blob isn't going to compress air as good as clean impeller blades.

I'm paying another Teamswifter to put a new head gasket into the first of my turbos I'll be getting back on the road ( I've got so many broken down Sprints, Forsas, Fireflies, Swifts, Geos and Metros that I need somebody else to fix some while I fix some to get them all back on the road) and when that's fixed I'm going to remove the PCV tube from the intake manifold and reroute it to an oil catch can so I can pour the oil back into the crankcase after each blast and to keep it out of the induction system.

And a turbo I have which isn't mounted on a car spun freely when I first got it but from just sitting around doing nothing it spins a lot less freely now. So for both reasons maybe try removing your turbo, cleaning it, and putting it back on and see if it works.


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:41 pm 
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I have a 1991 G10 non-turbo, that I have swapped a turbo cluster into for the Tachometer. What does the Turbo light mean in my case? I ask because the turbo light coming on in my non-turbo, seems to correspond to a loss of power that occurs but only when the engine is cold. It runs perfect (and the light goes on and off at similar RPMs) when the engine is warm.

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1991 Sprint/Metro, G10 3 cyl, 5-speed, 3 door


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:14 pm 
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The turbo light is wired to the upshift indicator, IIRC.

_________________
Good stuff for sale!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42901&start=0


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:43 pm 
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I am trying to learn what circumstances make it turn on. Low vacuum, High vacuum, something else? Whatever the circumstances/conditions, they seem to correspond to some power loss I am experiencing when the engine is cold.

_________________
1991 Sprint/Metro, G10 3 cyl, 5-speed, 3 door


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:16 pm 
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The shift light comes on depending on RPM and engine load (determined by throttle postition and probably output from the MAP sensor).

The ECU determines what to do with the info and turns the light on and off depending on the circumstances, so it's difficult to tell you what engine conditions will trigger the ECU to turn the shift light on and off.

This probably isn't the right thread to troubleshoot your non-turbo engine issues in, though. Try posting your problems in the "non-turbo" forum and see where it takes you. Good luck!

_________________
Good stuff for sale!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42901&start=0


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Thanks for the info. I thought I'd try this thread since the light was from a turbo instrument cluster and that might mean something to someone with turbo knowledge. I'll keep checking. It isn't a high priority yet as it goes away when the engine is even slightly warmed.

_________________
1991 Sprint/Metro, G10 3 cyl, 5-speed, 3 door


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:42 am 
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Hi to everyone!!
From what I've seen in the Chilton's repair manual and in the wiring schematic for the MK1 turbo; the Turbo light on the dash turns on when the ignition timing retards. The light is connected to the Igniter Module (The small Mitsubishi Box attached in the left shock tower). When the car starts moving, timing is advanced, as soon as the car picks up (by 2,900 RPM's +/-); the timing retards mechanically, sends a signal to the Igniter/Knock Controller and the light turns on. That's why it lights on even when the turbocharger is shot. That small Mitsu module has two functions: It is an igniter for the distributor and it is the knock controller that electronically retards timing if the knock sensor "hears" any knocking. Most of the time the knock controlling part is not used by the car's electronics; but the igniting function is always used; it is what keeps the car running.


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