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 Post subject: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:10 am 
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@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
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What controls the boost on a Mk1 turbo? Is it just the wastegate opening when some vacuum signal tells it that the boost is too high? So to put in more boost on a Mk1 you would use a Suzuki RD multilayer steel headgasket then somehow turn up the control on the wastegate so that it opens at a higher boost? That seems to me to be a far simpler and easier method of improving performance than using a mega squirt and sensors and what not. It seems like a new career in itself just to figure out how megasquirt and whatnot works so I would sooner use a simple system like a wastegate controlled boost combined with a bigger engine, turbo, intercooler, ducting, injectors, etc. to build a faster car.


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:12 am 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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Location: columbus, ohio
it's really not as simple as just turning up the boost. there are a bunch of things that make it harder to do than that.

first, the mk1 system uses a mechanical dump valve in the charge air line which opens to recirculate boost pressure back through the turbo. the waste gate solenoid on the oem system is set to open the waste gate on the turbo at around 7.5 psi. it measures the boost pressure using a small tube off the cold side of the turbo and applies that to the waste gate control solenoid.

the control set uses a vaf that measures the flow of air into the turbo and then the ecu varies the injector pulse width to supply the needed fuel. there is a very delicate balance of headroom in the fueling arrangement. if you just increase the applied boost you alter the balance of the fueling system so that the afr at higher rpm goes lean and the system can't provide enough fuel to keep the engine from burning itself up. i won't even go into detail about what happens to the ignition calculations.

if turning the turbo3 into a monster was as simple as adding a boost controller and winding the boost pressure up, everybody would be doing it.

and yeah, the megasquirt is an involved deal but the reason that people use it is that it works. there's not much that you can do with the factory control set to make fueling and ignition changes to support higher boost. that makes the megasquirt an attractive option for building a standalone, programmable control set.

i started with using a simple mechanical boost control valve on a turbo3. i think that it's a pretty common scenario for guys to hang one of those on and then proceed to wind the boost up to the point where there is a failure of some sort. i know i did - more than once. :wink: the only reason i'm responding is to try to save you the trauma and the expense that goes along with the learning curve. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
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Thanks for the explanation, I've been trying to figure it out myself by googling stuff and youtube videos but it looks quite complex, with tons of opportunities for engine destroying errors and problems. Rather than trying to squeeze more power out of one of my 1.0 litre T3s what I am planning to do is put a 1.3DOHC into one of my Mark1 turbos and then turbo it to make a faster car. But the more I look into it the more complex it seems so one idea I had was to just copy the T3 stuff but use bigger parts because the T3 EFI and turbo system seems relatively simpler. I think I am going to have to learn how EFI and Megasquirting a turbo work in order to do this project.


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:54 pm 
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a.k.a Bum head
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Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 5:29 pm
Posts: 3157
Location: London, ON
All of the info you need is in this forum. You've been a member for a while and have more than 300 posts to your name, take a look around and start checking out more of the content. Sounds like you have quite the herd of cars needing attention, so even if the threads you read aren't on exactly what you need right now, you're sure to learn something that will be helpful in the future.

Either that or I visit you while I'm out west and take a couple off your hands (for a reasonable price, of course). :lol:

Also, check out the T3Haven. It's old, but still very useful. Especially for the DIY info you seek. Should be a link to it in a sticky at the top of this forum.

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viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42901&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Edit: Looks like Chris beat me to it while I was typing.

Hope you like to read.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/turbo3haven/start

Forget about fancy head gaskets. The stock, and most replacement gaskets are up to the task. Do not exceed 10 psi without adding fuel, and at very least get yourself a narrow band o2 sensor.
It's been covered many, many times, so all the info is either here, or on turbo3 haven.

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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:18 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
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Thanks T3 Ragtop, CJ Dave E and SuprF1y for the input. I was ready to run out and start buying parts and cars and engines to build a Mk1 1.3DOHC turbo but some emails from other members gave me a heads up that it's not that simple. One member mentioned it might take a few thousand dollars of dyno time just to set all the parameters on the megasquirt, so that's when I realized I had better research this and figure out how to do what I want to do before I start dumping cash into the project. Interestingly enough Phil 'n Ed has posted a video of exactly what I am trying to build in the thread above this one called T3 idles then dies. He shows a video of a running 1.3DOHC that has been turboed. Its in a Mk2 or something else later whereas mine will be in the lighter and faster Mk1. I think that might be a solution, find a writeup by somebody who has turboed a 1.3DOHC then just copy what he did. Thanks for the ideas and pointing me in the direction of where to find the info I need. I won't be selling any parts or cars until I've assessed all of mine and got them all up and running because I don't want to inadvertently sell the one part I might need to get a particular car back on the road and then find I'm having a bitch of a time trying to replace the part I sold. It took me four years to replace a drivers side back side vent window on one of my cars. I'd smashed it to get into my car after I'd locked the keys inside, thinking it would be quick and cheap and easy to replace. Now I treat these parts like gold, they're not a dime a dozen like corolla parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
I've mentioned before that these cars are plenty peppy with the
boost turned up a few notches on an OE setup.

You can get a decent MBC installed for $20-30 bucks.

Do some reading up on how they work, there are several ways
to hook up an MBC. I have chosen the simplest and it is working
fine.

Before you attempt this yourself, you should know exactly how
an MBC works, how your turbo regulates boost with the wastegate,
and all the various methods of installing an MBC. Once you
fully understand everything, then be prepared to modify the MBC
for the installation of your choice.

Attachment:
BC2.jpg
BC2.jpg [ 60.36 KIB | Viewed 2048 times ]


This setup works real good.
Without any other complicated modifications, easily up the boost
to where you can get OE I/C Pop Off Valve to spit between shifts.
Use the factory fuel cut system to limit your high boost...
In other words, keep upping the boost till you get fuel cut
under load, the engine will stumble and the check engine light
will come on momentarily, then reset the boost till just under
the fuel cut threshold. That's your built in safety.

Quote:
Forget about fancy head gaskets. The stock, and most replacement gaskets are up to the task. Do not exceed 10 psi without adding fuel, and at very least get yourself a narrow band o2 sensor.
It's been covered many, many times, so all the info is either here, or on turbo3 haven.


If you want to go higher, you will need to modify the VAF spring tension and
shim the POV. You'll need an Air Fuel ratio gauge, to make sure you don't go lean
under load. You can add more fuel by swapping out large injectors and using
the A/F gauge as a guide.

It's really very simple, but you do need to know some fundamentals.
You don't need huge modifications unless you are going for mega HP.
You've got enough projects, I would start with safely maxing out the
OE system on one car, and getting to know how the system works.
Future modifications are more easily accomplished once you know
exactly how everything works.


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
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^^Awesome stuff Jamal, thanks, I'm getting pissed off at all these loogins in their Dodge RT pickups trying to beat me off the line when the light changes in my grannymobile '98 Chevrolet metro sedan ( with a 1.3 16 valve MPFI) that is my daily driver right now so I decided to get serious and buy a 1.3DOHC and stuff it into a MK1 turbo and turbo it. ( What kind of a f-ckin idiot buys a pickup truck and tries to go road racing in it anyway? Surrey and Langley, B.C., pickup truck driving f-ckin idiot capital of the world) ( The grannymobile beats them BTW, its even faster than the 90 Swift GT that I bought yesterday because the GT is a little screwed up).
Anyway, I thought I'd just buy a 1.3 DOHC, a turbo and some pipes and stick it all into one of my Mk1 turbos and away I'd go. But, as teamswifters have explained to me, and as I'm discovering doing internet searches about MegaSquirt and the like, its not that simple. Once you start raising boost and using a bigger turbo, and packing all that more air into the cylinders you need some way to increase and meter the fuel added to the air or it will run extremely lean and wreck your engine. So that's where I'm at now, I just bought a 90 Swift GT 1.3DOHC car so I'm going to turbo that once I've learned how, then get another 1.3 DOHC engine, copy the turbo setup, then cram it into a lighter and faster Mk1 turbo. I just bought a car hauling trailer too so I'm going to load up on parts cars and parts.
So while I'm loading up on this stuff I'm going to study megasquirting a turbo, and EFI, and all that stuff so that by the time I get all the turbos and engines and electronic brains and manifolds and stuff I'll know how to wire them together to get max. speed and horsepower.
Thanks a ton for all the information you and others are providing me about turbos, I really appreciate it because I'm going to be studying it for the next while to figure out how to build my car.
ADDENDUM: And I just reread your post, You are explaining how to go above 10PSI boost just using the factory setup, that's way cool, I'll do that first like you suggest just to learn how this stuff works. Just now I was out looking at my '88 Forsa with the Mazda 626 bypass valve I broke that I put the pictures of in one of your threads because I'm getting the parts and a cylinder head together to fix that one. ( another teamswifter is going to do that one for me because I'm busy putting a clutch in my 94 Swift, plus a bunch of other stuff I'm doing).
Once that Forsa is back on the road I'll be trying out those tweaks you mentioned above with an MBC and upping the boost and stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:41 pm 
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@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
Location: not here
JamalSpelling wrote:

Attachment:
BC2.jpg





Is that turbo and Manual Boost Controller for sale? I've got six working RHB32s but they're all high milers so they might not be compressing as much air as they once did as fast as they did. and none have an MBC. ( and one that's not on a car has a wastegate crack that's been welded up to repair it but you can still see the crack inside) (the picture of the turbo and MBC doesn't seem to be showing up in my quote)


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:16 am
Posts: 8042
Location: Ontario, Canada
If you really want to make easy power with the Mk1, put a 226/395 cam in it, and run 10 psi. Best bang for the buck, and makes it a completely different animal.

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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11674
Location: columbus, ohio
don't forget to shim the over pressure valve on the intercooler or it will lift off the seat before you get to 10 psi. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:30 am 
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Island Inbreeder
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Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
suprf1y wrote:
If you really want to make easy power with the Mk1, put a 226/395 cam in it, and run 10 psi. Best bang for the buck, and makes it a completely different animal.

.
+1
.
Just wanted to link this topic
About Homemade Boost controler
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=21897

link for POV

http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=22096


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 Post subject: Re: Mk1 boost control.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:43 pm 
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@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
Location: not here
t3 ragtop wrote:
don't forget to shim the over pressure valve on the intercooler or it will lift off the seat before you get to 10 psi. :wink:


The car I'm getting stuff together for now (my '88 Suzuki Forsa turbo) doesn't have a popoff valve on the intercooler, its got an ABV ( Air Bypass Valve ) off of an MX6 Mazda ( or whatever that Mazda that Ford calls a Probe is numbered as) which reroutes the turbo blow off air back into the air intake pipe for the turbo. Unfortunately its cheap plastic which broke when I was pulling a pipe off it and a new one at Mazda costs $203 plus tax. ( I checked two days ago) None of the cheaper aftermarket or other blow off valves I've seen yet will work as a straight bolt in repair on my modded Forsa because they all take blowoff air in through the base and exit it through the side whereas my Mazda ABV valve is straight through, it takes blowoff air in at the back and out through the front. There's pictures of it in my posts in the thread entitled Turbo Upgrade.
This '88 Forsa turbo had far and away the best performance out of all five of my turbo cars so I'm wondering if this MX6 bypass valve is already set to open at ten psi? I notice none none of the blowoff valves or bypass valves I see for sale on the internet say what pressure they open at. Do they all open at ten psi? I know its a fixed opening psi because it depends on a spring. To change the opening psi you have to change the spring. What would work to glue a new tube back onto my 203 dollar plus tax Mazda mx6 blow off valve? I once tried gluing a cracked plastic top tank on an Accord radiator and it didn't hold.
And thanks to you guys for all the great information and ideas and suggestions. The Mk1 1.3 DOHC turbo is a bit of a down the road project but as I'm planning that out I'm putting my other five Mk1 turbos back on the road and that's where I'll be using these simpler to do tweaks and upgrades you guys are telling me about. Looking into these upgrades is also giving me a better understanding of EFI and turboing, which I'll need to know about to build my 1.3 DOHC turbo Mk1. Plus I'd like to build an all aluminum small displacement propane powered turbo engine for my 1974 Dodge Power Wagon 3/4 ton 4x4 4spd so I can afford to drive it more than twice a year, which I plan on doing because I just bought a car hauling trailer.


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