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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:50 am 
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Posts: 153
Location: boise id
ok so for the past few months mk1 turbo has been running just fine. Ive been doing lots of work to it both upgrades and tlc. Got it painted last week and picked it up from the paint shop and it ran fine on my way back to work. Got in it to go home and on the drive it gradually started running more and more lean. I have installed a narrow band a/f gauge with a new bosch sensor. By the time i got home it wouldn't show on the a/f gauge at all and was running very poor. Would barely idle on its own and would stumble when accelerating and crusing.

Now for things i have checked. Fuel pressure pre fuel rail while running is 34lbs (with vacuum attached) and 45lbs (vacuum removed). Checked for continuity on all wires going to the afm, tps, and iac valve. Checked for boost leaks. Only one found was a very small one at the seals where the arm goes through the throttle body. (also can this be rebuilt and how). I cleaned and checked the ground wires and added a new one just in case. Checked for power at the injectors and has power. I don't have a noid light so i haven't checked the pulsing of them yet. Checked the resistance on all three injectors and is right on the specs i found on all data. (14 ohm.) Grabbed a afm from a friend who was gracious enough to let me barrow one and it idled better but no fuel still while driving and still stumbling. Checked the resistance numbers on the afm for all circuits and are right on the specs on all data.

Im sure there is more but i cant think of them currently.

Things running through my head to check next is to pull the injectors and see if they are clogged/functioning correctly. 2. it has the original distributor in it. Could a bad dist. allow it to run....ish but not have fuel? (tach works perfectly)

Interesting side note i checked the power to the injectors with a test light grounded to the battery while it was running and it smoothed out the idle.

Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.

i will try to add videos of the issues early next week.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:30 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Quote:
Would barely idle on its own and would stumble when accelerating and crusing.


Sounds like a vacuum leak. Anything from your oil dipstick not being seated to bad valve cover gasket
or of course any vacuum lines.


Have you checked for any codes?


Quote:
I have installed a narrow band a/f gauge with a new bosch sensor.


This has been said before......
Recheck your work. Often times if it was running fine before and you recently made changes
and experience problems, it could be related to recent modifications.

Quote:
Fuel pressure pre fuel rail while running is 34lbs


Make sure your fuel filter is not clogged up.



I would tend to think this is a VAF or injector issue otherwise, but sounds like you
checked most other except injector flow.
Always check the basics as well... visually inspect cap/rotor, plugs, air filter etc.

If your air filter's fully plugged you won't get proper airflow on the vane which affects fueling,
blah blah blah, you had it painted maybe it sucked in a bunch of crap at the body shop
and put your filter over the edge. Just a thought.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
Ya I may not be a smart man..........
But I will save you alot of head scratch
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MK1 turbo you say.?

Distributor
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A your welcome.!
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Image

_________________
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t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Last edited by jaguar,vettes&sprints on Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:51 pm
Posts: 153
Location: boise id
thank you both for your reply's and thoughts. first off jamalspelling I did a boost pressure test with an air line to the intake pre turbo after the vaf and only leak i found was at the throttle body where the arm goes through. (is this rebuild-able???) second i did check for codes and came back with 12 (i'm told this is a all clear code) the car has run great with the mods i have done for 4 months....other than the paint work i had done. i thought the filter as well might be plugged but when i tried swapping different vaf's (both another stock sprint and an 87 mr2) i left it open air (not attached to the filter housing) and the cap rotor plugs and wires are new (within 3 months) from orilley's.

jaguar, vettes&sprints, I can do the mechanics of cars just fine but i addmit I don't know much about the electrical systems of cars so i would like more information on how the distributor being bad would make the a/f gauge read lean? or would un burnt fuel not register on a single wire bosch sensor to a narrow band?

I had thought about the distributor as well. it is the factory one from 1987 on the car and has 256xxx miles on it. How would i go about testing it to make sure it is bad? or is there a way? thanks again for all the help gents. I greatly appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:25 am 
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a.k.a Bum head
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Location: London, ON
Compression test? And would your boost pressure test also find vacuum leaks?

_________________
Good stuff for sale!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42901&start=0


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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Location: columbus, ohio
the distributors on these cars use vacuum canisters to provide advance. it's not uncommon for a high mileage, old distributor to have a crudded up breaker plate which locks into a position and doesn't allow the vacuum to dial up the correct advance.

we have a member, fainya in texas, who rebuilds distributors and brings them back to factory spec. he has done 4 of them for me and they come back better than new. he's really inexpensive, too. :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=56296

i'd start there.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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geo racer wrote:

jaguar, vettes&sprints, I can do the mechanics of cars just fine but i addmit I don't know much about the electrical systems of cars so i would like more information on how the distributor being bad would make the a/f gauge read lean? or would un burnt fuel not register on a single wire bosch sensor to a narrow band?

I had thought about the distributor as well. it is the factory one from 1987 on the car and has 256xxx miles on it. How would i go about testing it to make sure it is bad? or is there a way? thanks again for all the help gents. I greatly appreciate it.

.
I pictures worth a thousand words..This what a MK1 Turbo (used) Dizzy looks like
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Image
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This is a Fainya Rebuilt unit
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Image
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Image

_________________
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t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Last edited by jaguar,vettes&sprints on Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
is it just me or is the drive on that "used" dizzy bent?

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92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:51 pm
Posts: 153
Location: boise id
No doubt on the workmanship of his rebuilds. Very nice. My problem is this is my dd. So havingit down for the shipping/rebuild time would be not so good. The other question still either not answered or I didn't understand the answer possibly is would a bad dizzy make the a/f gauge read lean? And why? Also how can I check to make sure the dizzy is bad before throwing money at it hoping?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:26 am 
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Island Inbreeder
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
well yes thank you for noticing the dizzy is bent....,......

The MK1 dizzy Drive is a week point and an area every MK1 owner should check often.!
(very easy to check 3 minute job)

Now getting back to your lean issue.............
If your timing is off.... Back to the bent drive on the distributor...
The A/F will be off But not a smoking gun Though
The MK1T is a great car But they have there week areas
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NO PICTURES..........SORRY.....jv&s

One ..... the dizzy drive

Second...Sensor grounds
(another very simple check)....
As you look at your engine you will see were the hose from your intercooler connects to the intake its the square box thing with the Turbo label on it...
Look on the back passenger side corner( Low ) you should see six black wires under a 10mm wrench bolt head remove that bolt and CLEAN this area apply dialectric grease (vasaline)
to the wires and bolt.......... I can't stress how important this is ...!!!!
.
Third....... is your MAS (MAP) and the wiring connector to it
this is not as easy to diagnose or fix or find a spare to replace
( you will have to do some reading and understnd whats going on )
Check the wiring Plug to this unit

I will tell you this......
There is a flapper in that box and messures how much fuel is required to run your engine
by were that flapper is located inside the air inlet channel
( think of it like gate on a fence)
the more its open feeds back to the ECM how much fuel to supply the engine

forth... is the valve adjustment (intake/Exhaust)
SHOULD BE DONE OFTEN.....
After time the valves will wear close and allow less air/fuel in and out of the engine
Most of the time they donot wear evenly.. some valve will wear faster then others
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I don't want to leave you with my RANT without mentioning the Timing belt
If you are schooled in this area I will just leave you with this little nugget......
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when installing a new belt and line up the timing marks as per service manual spec
you will notice the cam will be off by a half of a cog
you will have to make a decision advance or retard half a cog some people won't think this is an issue
It does an is....
Sometimes take more then one try to hit the sweet spot depending on how your driving habit is
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GOOD LUCK ........jv&s
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_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
Quote:
I have installed a narrow band a/f gauge with a new bosch sensor.


Is this a recent installation? Were you getting acceptable readings before the body work?

BTW, I prefer a wide band A/F Sensor for a more accurate reading other than lean/rich

http://www.autometer.com/tech_faq_answer.aspx?sid=1&qid=48

Now that I reread this post, I'm leaning towards an issue with the VAF (Map/Maf)
Technically it's called a Variable Airflow Meter, we often use MAF when describing this
unit on our particular cars.

Quote:
tried swapping different vaf's (both another stock sprint and an 87 mr2)

And what were you results on your narrow band A/F gauge after swapping the VAFs?


Quote:
when installing a new belt and line up the timing marks as per service manual spec
you will notice the cam will be off by a half of a cog

Actually this is because the timing mark for the cam is on a stamped steel plate,
the grommets that surround the mounting bolts for this plate wear out
and cause the plate to shift one way or the other and that is why the mark
does not sometimes line up when you have everything disassembled.

Quote:
only leak i found was at the throttle body where the arm goes through. (is this rebuild-able???)

They all leak on the throttle plate shaft. Anything is possible, though I do not know of anyone
who has had this rebuilt. I have thought about ways to do it, but pretty much live with it.

Quote:
would a bad dizzy make the a/f gauge read lean or cause a lean condition?

Yes, that is your question. I'm not satisfied that that is your problem.


I would like to know:
What plugs are your running? And did you pull them to see if they are showing a lean condition?
and what is your A/F gauge setup as for as sensor, did you add a 2nd sensor for the gauge?
What about your OE sensor condition?
If it's old it should be replaced, there is a procedure in the FSM to check our single wire O2 sensor.
That I believe has not been discussed yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
JamalSpelling wrote:
Quote:
I have installed a narrow band a/f gauge with a new bosch sensor.

Quote:
would a bad dizzy make the a/f gauge read lean or cause a lean condition?

Yes, that is your question. I'm not satisfied that that is your problem.


I would like to know:
What plugs are your running? And did you pull them to see if they are showing a lean condition?
and what is your A/F gauge setup as for as sensor, did you add a 2nd sensor for the gauge?
What about your OE sensor condition?
If it's old it should be replaced, there is a procedure in the FSM to check our single wire O2 sensor.
That I believe has not been discussed yet.

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+1
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little eye candy
Image

_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Last edited by jaguar,vettes&sprints on Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:51 pm
Posts: 153
Location: boise id
Jamalspelling, I have had the narrow band a/f gauge in for about 5 months and yes before the paint job it was running much better and had acceptable readings on the a/f gauge. I have the wire for the single wire o2 sensor spliced and soldered the wire for the narrow band together with it. then heat shrink wrapped it to help seal it. I do have a new bosh o2 sensor in. Running the a/f gauge and the ecu on the same one. I also agree that a wide band is much better however finances didn't allow it and i figured some knowledge is better than none.

As per your question about what happened with changing out the vafs. I borrowed one from a friend with a couple of these cars, put it on and it idled better so i figured it was the vaf. (I never drove it with the borrowed one at this point) Had to return the borrowed one back to the guy.....couldn't find one locally to purchase so found a mk1 mr2 one and bought it (reading it is an upgrade many on here have done) The car ran worse. Started trying to find other possible problems. Went back and borrowed the sprint one again and this time drove with it on and it ran great.
Now for a recent update. I was scrolling through superfly's 25 dollar thread and he had mk1 vafs for sale so i bought two (one for a backup and one to try) Got it in on monday and it runs great. Thanks again mike, and all those that chimed in on what could be wrong with my car. I greatly appreciate all the help. Turns out to be the vaf.

and now for some pics of before and along the way and current.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:51 pm
Posts: 153
Location: boise id
the day i bought it from my dad.
Image

Painted
Image

Lowered two inches, new rims, Paint (again) and 20% window tint.

Image

I also have removed the Top mount intercooler and installed a front mount kit with atmospheric bov. Removed the turbo grill, installed a non turbo one, and removed the intercooler air scoop before the paint job was done as well. Going for the sleeper look lol. on top of this i have also installed an upgraded cam. and a 2.25 cat back exhaust. I also have a gsp gt26r quick spool turbo about to go on with a custom ss tubular exhaust manifold. (being built by a local speed shop) and done the cts mod as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
That is a sweet ride!

Well you'll be needing that wide band sensor soon,
along with an injector upgrade to go with your bigger turbo.

Are you planning on doing the work yourself & will you
be keeping the stock electronics or adding/replacing them?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:51 pm
Posts: 153
Location: boise id
The exhaust manifold will be built by a company called revtec motor works here in Idaho. And I am currently saving for a megasquirt v2 ecu and wiring harness and a wideband as well. The megasquirt install will be done by me with the supervision of revtec and the tuning will be done by revtec as well.

Thank you for the compliment I really like it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 pm 
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geo racer wrote:
Turns out to be the vaf.




What an excellent thread, to read through the problem description and the suggested repairs and to see the problem identified and fixed. I'm somewhat disappointed when I read where someone describes a problem, those that know suggest fixes, maybe a repair or two is tried, then the thread just ends and you never know what the problem was or if it was fixed. The information in those threads is still useful and worth reading to learn about these cars but its more satisfying to read about the problem actually being found and fixed.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:13 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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Location: Emerald city Washington
coasterII wrote:
geo racer wrote:
Turns out to be the vaf.




What an excellent thread, to read through the problem description and the suggested repairs and to see the problem identified and fixed. I'm somewhat disappointed when I read where someone describes a problem, those that know suggest fixes, maybe a repair or two is tried, then the thread just ends and you never know what the problem was or if it was fixed. The information in those threads is still useful and worth reading to learn about these cars but its more satisfying to read about the problem actually being found and fixed.


.
and thanks to you "coasterII" for specifically Highlighting the solution to this problem the OP had
alot of time OP's will post a question to a problem and like you stated the thread ends are OP goes on to another topic
well we are left hanging
.
and because you injoyed the post I will let it stand (Minus batgirl for reasons brought up in another thread)
....
.......jv&s
.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:08 am 
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Location: not here
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
alot of time OP's will post a question to a problem and like you stated the thread ends are OP goes on to another topic



Sometimes they don't even go on to another topic, sometimes they completely vanish and are never seen or heard from again.
You don't know if they fixed the car or if a drunk 380 lb. Ho passed out on them and smothered them to death or what.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Posts: 153
Location: boise id
Well its been a little over a month now that I got the vaf figured out and the car is still running great. Still impressed it is a 260000 mile motor and still the stock clutch. Thought I would post up pics of recent work done to it now. It has a Ss log manifold going to a gt25r gsp turbo with 2.25 turbo back exhaust. Currently running 14 psi on 91 octane (no ethanol) and just the CTS mod. I love daileying this car. So fun to surprise the crap out of unsuspecting "fast" cars :D


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