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 Post subject: Mk2 T3 More Idle Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:46 pm 
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Hey all, I've been searching around and haven't really found a definitive answer. I recently swapped a turbo motor into a Sprint, and it runs decently and seems to make pretty good power. It is having some weird idle surge issues however. It will run good for a few minutes, then the idle will start to surge up and down, varying by ~300 RPM. I played with timing and have it set around 8 degrees BTDC, but I'm wondering what else could be causing this issue? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Last edited by stelios on Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:01 pm 
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That symptom usually points to a throttle position sensor.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:45 am 
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Interesting, I have adjusted it to what the manual states, finding the spot where it goes from continuity to infinity. Is it still possible for it to be bad? I did however adjust it while it was on the car, so I might not have been 100% accurate with my adjustments.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:49 am 
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do the factory service manual test procedure for the clt sensor. the coolant sensor sets all the parameters for cold start, idle, and closed loop ecu operation.

since this is a swap, recheck all your grounds including the wires that attach to the rear of the intake manifold. clean everything to a bright finish and make sure to tighten the bolt completely.

the turbo3 uses a cold start relay which is mounted to the intake manifold that has a bi-metal contact and a timer to turn the cold start injector on and off. you can temporarily disable that by unplugging it's connector. if the surging stops, you may have a bad cold start timer.

the rest is harder. there's a special wax pellet in the throttle body that is melted as coolant temps rise. make sure that you have the coolant hoses connected properly and that you have flow through the throttle body. sometimes those passages get blocked by corrosion build up.

there is an active solenoid valve, ics, that is controlled by the ecu and raises the idle speed about the same as what you are seeing. those solenoid valves have a known failure mode where the little brass spring breaks. they can be replaced with a known good solenoid valve or repaired using the little coil spring from an ink pen. :wink:

in your situation you will find that the turbo3 supplement fsm is your best friend. it has undeniably the best troubleshooting and diagnostics guide for this type of thing.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Location: Vancouver
It appears to be the ISC valve on the back of the intake manifold. When unplugged the symptom disappears, so that leads me to believe that it is infact the culprit. How would I go about repairing it, or else are they readily available to replace the unit that I have?

On a sidenote, I thought I had figured out my coolant temperature gauge issues, but it is still acting strange. As soon as the car starts, the coolant temp gauge immediately starts to rise all the way to hot. I have checked the grounds, and have replaced the temperature sender on the thermostat housing. Any other ideas?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:18 pm 
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i believe that the isc solenoid is the same as the one on the dohc16 valve engine from the swift gt as well as the 89 thru 91 mk2 g10 cars.

that particular solenoid has several supercession part numbers and can be found on later model esteems and forenzas in a lot of junk yards. it's like picking blueberries. :wink:

find the newest one you can as a replacement. they have a standard impedance coil that will draw 20 or 30 milliamps from the driver transistor in the ecu. i trigger it from the standard driver transistor for fast idle on my megasquirt controller.

as far as the temp gauge response, the turbo3 single terminal sensors are pretty much the same as the corresponding g10 model years. those are different in range than the temp sensors for 92 and up g10 engines. i think that you may have a sensor that has been replaced with a newer one. they all have the same appearance but different calibration ranges.

the only other reasonable explanation for the temp readings acting the way you describe would be a decidedly wonky ground either at the engine or under the dash.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:51 pm 
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Location: Vancouver
Okay I'll have to go raid some wreckers for a new ISC then. Hopefully I can find another hood to practice cutting for the hoodscoop as well :D

As far as the temperature gauge, if I can't get it to work properly then I may just grab an aftermarket gauge and sending unit and use that. Stock gauges tend to be lazy and not very accurate to begin with, but hopefully I can get it to cooperate. I'm still waiting on my bracket for an alternator upgrade as well, the headlights are weak as hell. Does anyone have a chassis/engine ground diagram that they could post? I'll likely replace a lot of them so I want to make sure I don't miss any.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Have yu restored your headlights? Mine were so dim I ran them on high beam just to see the road and never got flashed once. Until I cleaned the wih the 3M headlight restore.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:00 pm 
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I have the square style glass headlights, so the lenses are still clear and don't need a restore. The alt is just super weak unfortunately. Plus I want to run some fog lights etc so the extra power will be beneficial.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Managed to grab a few spare ISCs from a wrecker, but none of them are direct fit, and would require me to replace the plug. I decided to try to take mine apart and clean it first and that seems to have done the trick. It was pretty gross in there, so I cleaned out the plunger and lubed it up a little bit, no idle issues for now anyway. Now to tackle the leaky transmission seals, weird temp gauge, and cutting a hole for the intercooler.

It will be a fun little car when it's all said and done. Threw in a custom Honda short shifter that I had made for me a little while ago that I didn't end up using in my CRX, GT front brakes and rear disks, Swift Sedan prop valve, stiff springs, and poly bushings. Should be a fun and relatively reliable daily driver. Beats the hell out of driving my CRX every day, it's way too low and stiff to deal with speedbumps around here, plus I'm building a turbo engine for it as I race autocross in SMF class, which basically necessitates either a 2.0L engine or boost of some kind.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:33 pm 
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I didn't want to cut the hood so I mounted my intercooler in the front bumper.


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_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:04 pm 
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I was thinking of doing that as well, but was worried about efficiency due to the increase in volume of the charge piping. Plus I picked up a junk hood to practice on so I should be okay. Good idea though, how do you find it down there? Does it take longer to get to full boost than with it in the normal spot?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:34 pm 
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speaking in general, a longer charge air pipe increases turbo lag and decreases throttle response. shorter piping tightens up throttle response and improves the system dynamics.

one of the reasons i used an air to water intercooling design was the fact that i was able to utilize an extremely short run of charge air piping and locate the actual intercooler within inches of the throttle plate.

relocation of the air to air intercooler is a bargain of trade offs. the lower frontal location decreases heat soak and slightly increases heat transfer. it also lengthens the charge air piping and induces increased lag and spring effects.

i always found that the factory top mounted intercooler design was a pretty decent solution. i cut several geo hoods and mounted the mk2 g10t scoop to make the system work. about the only time heat soak became a problem was while the car was standing in traffic on a summer day. even then, getting the car moving brought the temps down pretty quickly.

overall, the factory did a nice job of putting together a fairly reliable and very seamless turbo adapted g10. some of the most troublefree driving i have ever experienced came while i was piloting a turbo3 modified vert running a box stock factory system.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Location: Vancouver
If you relocated the intercooler, running smaller diameter charge piping may help reduce the negative effects of the relocation. Anyway, started cutting my hood last night, going to finish up today then throw day insurance on her :)

Upon changing my transmission seals, I noticed a LOT of metal in the transmission fluid. Going to flush it a few times so hopefully that gets rid of it. Pulling out the plug and seeing a big blob of metal bits was a bit of a surprise to say the least.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Have not noticed and negative effects mounted down there. Boosts at 1300 rpm and will hit 25 psi no problem if my MBC is not set right (oops) I personality find it runs cooler down there and keeps the air charge cooler which also help with any negative effects of the longer piping.

As for the Trans. I hope they don't look like a bearing housing. I had that problem. Little bits of the cage came out. Was my input bearing that blew.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:52 pm 
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Nope trans seems fine now after doing a bit of a flush. Still a little rough going into 2nd sometimes, but otherwise it's fine. I'm spoiled in my CRX, it shifts really nice and tight, after a lot of work on the linkage etc plus rebuilding with carbon syncros.

I figured out my temp gauge issue. Turns out, the entire cluster was actually not working properly. I noticed my tach doing funny things, and that my fuel gauge wasn't moving. I figured it was issue with ground, so rather than pulling apart all the loom and taking the dash half apart, I ran a new ground wire and attached it to the rear of the cluster. Seems to be working so far, but I didn't run it for long as it's still in my garage.

I seem to be having some charging issues. Alt and battery are new, but I'm only getting 11.8 volts on the battery when it's running. Something must be up, anything that is likely to be wrong that I can check first?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Ahh turns out I'm just an idiot and forgot to plug the cable from the alt into the fuse box. All seems to be working properly now. Drove it about 100km today and it pulls quite well. Seems to stutter a tiny bit under hard acceleration around 4-5k rpm but it's not that bad. The idle issues seem to be intermittent as well, it was surging a bit today before it warmed up. Guess I'll have to do more troubleshooting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Hey guys, having some more weird idle issues. Occasionally my idle will get "stuck" around 2500-3000rpm. It seems to happen after hard WOT pulls, although not every time. I'm thinking it may have something to do with the wax pellet idle controller?

Otherwise the car is running pretty decent. I'm wondering though, as I have nothing to compare it to, in stock form, the t3 should pull pretty hard right up to redline, yes? Mine seems to sometimes struggle a bit past 4000rpm. My air/fuel ratio is showing rich at WOT and under heavy acceleration as I would expect, any other ideas?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:10 pm 
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I know on my turbo swap there was a small dashpot on the throttle body that helps ease the thotttle closed was sticking. I just removed it. Dont know if its needed or not but runs good without it.

Yes. It should run strong right up to redline. At least mine does. Do you have a boost gauge? If not get one. If you do whats the boost doing. The wastegate could not be working right.
Could also have somthing to do with the air flow meter not set right. Also make sure the air filter is not pluged. All in all. I woukd wait for t3 to chime in. He has more knowlodge on these then anyone. Im just throwing some ideas that could cause that. I assume the a/f gauge you talk about it a narrow band amd not a wide band. It could still be running leaner then it should be. Only a wideband will let you for sure.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:33 am 
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Location: Vancouver
No boost gauge yet, but I am planning on getting one. The AFR gauge is a narrowband, but it still gives a ballpark idea of what fuel is doing. Enough for me to say that it's likely not an issue with fuel pressure. The air filter was cleaned and oiled, so that shouldn't be a problem either I don't think.

On another sidenote, I replaced the stock NA alternator with an alt from a turbo. Apparently the parts place had two different part numbers for them. I was unaware that the turbo had a different alt. It came with a 3 groove pulley though, and does now whine a bit on startup. Are there any 3 groove pulleys available for water pump and crank? Or if not, I guess I can grab a 2 grooved one from a wrecker, but I'd rather run the 3 if I can.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:28 am 
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Well. The stock one will have a 3 grove. Thats the smallest you can get. The one you got is more then likley a 4 grove. What you could of done it had the parts store. Swap them. Its an easy job with an impact gun. Other then that see if someone has an extra 3 grove kicking around but try the place you got it from first.

With the other issue that could be a head scratcher. But without knowing how much boost your getting can limmit things. Gauges are very important in trouble shooting.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:45 pm 
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the mk1 turbo3 cars had vee type pulleys. the mk2 turbo3 had the standard 3 rib pulleys they used on the mk2 and mk3 g10 engines.

also, be aware that the alternators used on the 3 banger cars had 2 different shaft diameters depending on who made the alternator.

i had the guy who does my auto electric rebuilds look the pulley up in his book and order it for me one time. i might even have that sitting around here somewhere. if i run into it i can check to see if there's a part number on the box.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:50 pm 
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Location: Vancouver
I played with it a bit today and the squeal seems to have stopped. Those things like to be really tight it seems. Any ideas about the weird idle issues?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Seems like a sticky butterfly or tps is causing the odd idle. I'll have to take it apart and see if I can figure out which one. I can feel it in the pedal when it gets stuck, but I'm not sure which it is. Are there any throttle bodies which are interchangeable, or perhaps bigger than stock turbo 3?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:41 pm 
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i have seen a few turbo3 engines that have had their intake manifolds modified with more common throttle bodies but there is no "standard" intake/throttle body combination other than the factory unit which is shared among the mk1 and mk2 turbo3 variants.

the oem throttle body has the air bypass valve built into it as an integral part of the cold start and idle controls.

it's probable that someone tried to adjust the idle by using the throttle stop screw. that can let the butterfly close down too far a wedge itself into the air passageway. try to inspect the throat and butterfly for damage and adjust the butterfly to the factory set point.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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