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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: whiteout
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:10 am 
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Location: brooklyn
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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:54 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Kewl! Any more pics you want to share?
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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:53 am 
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Location: brooklyn
Hello. I did a whole write up. But i became so confused, deleted the text and kept the picture. So i am a new owner from Brooklyn NY, and somehow magic put this car into my hands a week ago. When i bought it, most of the parts were held by zip ties and wire hangers. It is registered now, and i will show more pictures, as the cleaning it up, and tuning proceeds. Also i am in a need of driver side glass for this 2 door, if anybody has a spares.
Jama very nice and clean ride, now i have an inspiration:).
First gear and syncros are shot, but i also sorted it out locally-also research shows 1.3 16v trans swap is easy, and those trans are available at local scrap yard


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:58 pm 
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Location: brooklyn
its been some time ale lots of work put in. head rebuild on ss valve, 3 angle job and bunch of porting of the valve seats. The old turbo could not take a pressure, so i am dropping saab 93 2.0 charger


please help me find the links about fuel rail regulator, blow off valve, mods?
I'd like to have about 8 pounds of boost. Also i have a v6 passat 300's injectors...


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Location: brooklyn
to be honest, i suck at turbo, just need some references to rock it. I work on 2 strokes and build them like crazy, but i need help figuring out BOV valve scenario and lil vacuum lines.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:45 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Vacuum Lines
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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:57 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
BOV is easy.
You want a fast acting BOV (one with a vacuum connection) of good quality,
the seals on the Ebay China ones don't work well and cause problems.

But if you're only running 8lbs of boost, you might stick with the OE
POV (pop off valve) that's part of the OE intercooler. That's good
for almost 10lbs.

There's a B&M fuel pressure modifier that can fit the OE regulator,
but you have to slice the OE in half to mount it.
You may be good with stock pressure though.
Raising the pressure can modify the spray pattern and may
not be the best thing. Maybe just upgrade to a high volume
fuel pump like Walbro.

8 PSI boost is not that much more than OE, but you probably have
more flow than stock with the turbo upgrade.
300 injectors should work, but might even be too big.
You need to install an Air/Fuel sensor to see how the fueling
is, that's the only way. Then you can adjust the fueling using
different sized injectors. It's a mechanical adjustment and the
only way really if your gonna stick with the stock electronics,
but very doable.

I ended up with 320's for 15 lbs boost on a KKK 04 turbo to
get the right fueling.

And recommend a bigger intercooler. Or a water injection setup
like cooling mist will do wonders for you.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:24 am 
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Location: columbus, ohio
i offer this only as constructive criticism, not to be hating.

the stock log type exhaust manifold is a flow killer. i don't think that you'll have enough wind to spool that ko4 turbo without a serious upgrade to the manifold.

the oem boost pressure was 8 pounds and the over pressure valve on the mk1 intercooler is opened right around there.

scotty uses hose washers to space the spring out on those oem relief valves to get 10 psi out of them. they must recirculate the pressure with the dump occurring between the vaf and the turbo intake or else you create serious fueling issues. the vaf measures the inducted air and it's signal to the ecu is calculated to set the injector pulse width. if you release boost pressure to atmosphere the fuel calculation is way wrong.

that oem pressure valve is not a bov in it's true representation and like jamalspelling indicates you are better off to use a fast acting bov which uses a vacuum line to help pull the valve off it's seat. but.....as long as you run the factory controls you must route the release the air back into a re-circulation loop that puts the metered air back into the turbo inlet.

the injection on an oem configuration is 3 210 cc/min injectors in a batch fire arrangement. the last mk2 g10t i built used 3 290 cc/min injectors running in sequential operation with 18 psi boost pressure to make 153 hp. i'd think that 300 cc injectors in batch fire would give you a pig rich idle afr and higher idle rpm but be pretty close at wot. the fueling issue would be a matter of the scaling and measurement from the vaf. the vaf is designed to closely match the curve of air flow designed for an 8 psi pressure. you add a turbo that will develop more pressure and it has a different fan curve. the vaf is designed to see induction air flow at a certain rate. beyond that rate the vane moves the variable resistor to the end of it's travel and the electrical signal hits max. more air does not create a higher voltage output and computation cannot add any more fuel to compensate.

it's possible to re-adjust the vaf's curve by mechanically changing the spring tension but there's really no way to change the electrical signal's curve.

i ditched the factory controls for a megasquirt ms2 ver. 3 stand alone which uses a map sensor and gives me digital control over scaling of the injection and ignition. in my estimation that's the only reliable way of making more power.

about the exhaust manifold. a log type manifold like the oem is the least effective kind. the pressure pulse from the #1 cylinder has the farthest travel to the impeller and the pulse is weaker than the pulse from the #2 and #3 cylinders which have shorter paths. the differences in pressure among the 3 pulses causes the turbo to be propelled at different rates and that causes the turbo spin to move around instead of spinning at a consistent, steady rate.

the ideal manifold would have runners that were of equal length and joined with a very efficient merge section just ahead of the turbo. those tend to make each of the 3 pulses average out which removes impeller surge.

here are a couple of pics, a gen 1 and a gen 3 turbine tech manifold. the blue engine has a kkk ko4 like you are using that makes 21 psi. the injectors for 21 psi are 450 cc/min in sequential mode and the pintles in those injector are so heavy that it's hard to get an idle under 1100 rpm. it's just impossible to control the mass of the pintles and get them to open and close fast enough to get the idle speed lower.

gen 1 exhaust manifold and tdo3.
Image

gen 3 exhaust manifold and ko4.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:16 am
Posts: 25
Location: brooklyn
Thanx guys!
That header, I have put die grinder to the iron, got good shortcuts/angles as possible, Cast can take heat, weld not so much. I build expansion pipes, and could slap a decent header, just not yet, will see...I am aware of the line; turbo lag to full boost will be rigid.

I do have an air/fuel, but not wideband, so will wire it in, also have boost gauge

It is actually good to hear its all about mechanical mods, I will re-read that section about opening regulator- don't want to cut wrong place

So the car runs 8pounds of boost stock, i was not aware of that. My gauge was showing 5 pounds, but i bought the car in miserable condition (but no rust). So yes, i would like to run 10 pounds, maybe little plus.

ive got your vacuum line schematic, so just redue it with no alterations

and lastly ill look into shimming stock blow off for increased boost.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:16 am
Posts: 25
Location: brooklyn
i keep reading and analyzing.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:50 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Quote:
they must recirculate the pressure with the dump occurring between the vaf and the turbo intake or else you create serious fueling issues....................as long as you run the factory controls you must route the release the air back into a re-circulation loop that puts the metered air back into the turbo inlet.



Negative, you cannot recirculate the BOV on the MK1 setup, you will blow off your oil cap.






Get a wideband A/F, AEM has a beauty of one with an analog display that I really dig.
Very nice to see real time accurate readings, it's the only way you tweak this thing out
to the correct ratios, short of Dyno tuning. They're worth every penny.


Last edited by JamalSpelling on Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:03 am 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Image

Image

Image

After all that, I ended going back to near stock pressure after finding the right sized injector.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:57 am 
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Posts: 25
Location: brooklyn
Good to hear about that blow off, so its a pooper and that treasure should not go into the intake. When the time comes imm shim it/space it.
so distributor is centrifugal advance, and its limited?
ok, guys i have an idea, can we wire in msd 6 cyl distributor (pro-comp), MSD box, and MSD boost retard box. I have a most parts, and very possibly could machine transfer flange for distributor?

sort of i don't want to go standalone efi route.

also good to hear that fuel pressure will be sufficient, no mod needed.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:13 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Distributor is centrifugal with Dual Vacuum Advance/Retard diaghrams.
Already retards under boost.
Though you may want to go through it and make sure it's not gummed up,
they have a tendency to eat the advance springs over time and
check the vacuum diaphrams for proper function.
A member here can rebuild them, but not that hard to do yourself.
There's a recent pictorial from Florida Ed on here somewhere.
Knock sensor will also retard timing, and can be fooled & set off by
other knocks besides preignition like bad motor mounts or extremely
stiff ones. I filled the mounts in one time with epoxy instead of
replacing OE, rattled like a sumbitch and affected the knock retard.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:04 am 
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Location: brooklyn
great info to the point thank you guys for easing the search for me (regardless I've spend hours reading). Florida Edd (jamal) i just picked up the private messages you guys have send me few weeks ago. To Edd, as you see i have put a bigger charger, but yes my center piece gave up, khi broke at the hot side flange where it bolts to the center section. I will be slowly running it up, The rebuild took me roughly 5 days which felt like 24/7 job. I've burned out. At this point the the engine runs flawless. All sensors picking up signal smooth, it takes a minute for idle to stabilize when hot, and it is quiet and smooth.
In order to finish i need to reconnect water and oil lines to the turbo, and drop 6k rpms to see how it works pressurized, but making it movable will allow me to print it to my shop (work at 2stroke moto shop), and finish all the sub-bracketry and make it vibration save and stationary (radiator, intercooler, i will probably run open header to see how the that stock "log" manifold performs), before linking down tube to the rest of the exhaust. There have been more pic from the build i will put up few to keep you guys looking.
thanx


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:16 am 
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Location: brooklyn
...


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:20 am 
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Location: brooklyn
Jamal: good info about distributor. I have a guys here locally with centrifugal advance machine for rebuilding distributors. Actually i have a little problem with it, the distributor cap is walking on the distributor (actually it damager 3 electrodes). When installed with 2 clips it does not sit well, I have a black cap, but see red ones on ebay. Is there a difference in the shape of the base to make it sit solid on distributor body?


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Location: So Cal, USA
Red caps are for normally aspirated, different distributor.
You need the (black) cap for the turbo, as well as the correct rotor.

Also lose the Valve Cover vent, it's a sealed system, you cannot vent the
crankcase, they do not like it. That vent needs to be plumbed back into
the air intake tube pre turbo.

If everything's buttoned up tight, then you should have no idle issues.
When it's idling smooth and lift out the dipstick, it should stumble and
or die.


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:48 pm 
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Quote:
I work on 2 strokes and build them like crazy


You are my kind of people. Someday I might look for your help building chambers for this:

Image

Sorry I'm off topic, but now I'll make sure I get the news as you keep building your T3. Someday I want one of those, but for now I've got enough to do on my NA GT.

FYI my brother Colin makes whiskey in Brooklyn (http://kingscountydistillery.com/) and has a Mk2 Metro he is very fond of. He is mechanically inept, however (understatement) and would likely trade fancy booze for your expertise if you're into that sort of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:40 am 
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Location: brooklyn
Ok so distributor info sorted out. I do have a black one, and will replace damaged unit for another black one (well i spaced it on washer so electrodes ignite in place not damaged by rotor). I need to make sure it runs well, and then will put some dollars into it. So far 100 bucks invested including valves and 3 angle job $5 per seat- old school machinist from Barbados, and a trip to the welder for sub bracing.

Jamal i am sorting out all the lines as well, and will vent the valve cover into pre turbo intake.

Now i will need to have a talk with teeth lols....Yes brother!!!

Rd125? or bigger? I actually own rd125, 2x 60cc jugs, on reed valves- total underdog. I build mopeds like hot bagels, daily/ McDonald style, in and out :) (2nd stroke mopeds), and will tell you those rd's cylinder is almost identical cast to my fastest moped kits (new kits on the block). I make those reeds valves 60'cc cylinder spin like mad man, well over 10K. and rd125 cast shape can take the same porting as mopeds. MY tomos 2.5hp, runs probably 9hp, but I've exploded the cases, seized crank and piston at the same time (50cc going 50mph)...and list goes on. 2 strokes are the best for practicing porting, and the fundaments of air movement plus thermodynamics. and they are dirt cheap....


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:34 pm 
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When you do put a trans in it, get one from a 3 cyl. The one in the 1.3 16V has the wrong final drive, and it will KILL performance.

These motors want gear

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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:52 pm 
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Location: brooklyn
oh thats a power point, ive had located few Suzuki swift 4 cyl but also have a lead on non turbo trans few hours away from where i live. I need to fire it up first, actually almost dont mind not having first gear.....thank you


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:16 am
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Location: brooklyn
u know...so just to be straight, 3cyl geo 5 speed direct bolt to engine, but one different mount location, needs 3 cylinder axles, What about flywheel?


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:21 am 
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Yes, you can bolt Geo 3cyl transmission to Mk1 engine but its a completely different transmission with completely different mounts. It will not work without major surgery to adapt the car to Mk2 mounts


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 Post subject: Re: whiteout
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:33 pm 
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As far as flywheel Turbo Sprint MK1 uses a different flywheel as
the normally aspirated.
The flywheel for the Turbo Sprint are generally the same as
the 1.3 same goes for clutch assembly.


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