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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:29 am 
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Let me first say I'm not posting this willy nilly. I have read every post I could find regarding blow off valves,waste gate,boost level ect and still find it necessary to as questions.
My blow off valve was leaking and I disassembled and cleaned it out as well as tried to freshen up the seal to no avail. Time for a new one so here I am.

Question -1 free air or recirculating ? I operate in extremely dusty conditions
Question -2 if recirculating would I plumb the hose in the air intake prior to the throttle body in the air filter hose ?
Question -3 what bov should I go with? I've seen Mitsubishi 1g Bovs recommended but I'm looking at 75+ shipping and that seems high with so many options around for 35$. I'm not cheaping out I just want to spend my $ wisely. An eBay link would be appreciated as there are so many options out there.

I have more questions regarding bov and waste gate pressures in relation to each other but thought it best to break my questions down in to two separate posts just to keep it semi simple.

As always I appreciate and respect any advice.
Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:55 am 
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The reason everyone talks about Eclipse BOV is because they used to be $10 in the junkyards. If we were buying new or on Ebay from some yahoo that picked it up in junkyard we would probably buy $35 stuff you are referring to.
Just get one thats vacuum operated and adjustable, install it as close as you can to the throttle plate and return the air straight back into turbo compressor side inlet.
I use Eclipse BOV installed at factory over-boost valve place in the back of the intercooler dumping the air to atmosphere. I was too lazy to make it close loop system but wanted to protect the turbo from pressure wave traveling from throttle plate back to the turbo when throttle plate its slammed shut during gear changes . As far as I can tell you are using CVT type transmission with centrifugal clutch so no gear changes to worry about there. Don't worry about making it close loop system .


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:02 pm 
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Thank you. Yes it is a CVT type of clutch system.
So if I have this right I can basically use any adjustable Bov. Place it as close to the throttle plate as I can. I can get within a few inches. And just let it vent to the atmosphere?
Sorry to need to be so basic I just want to be sure I got it right.
Thank you for you're time and patience.
Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Yes. Only "problem" with venting to atmosphere is the amount of air metered and fuel injected will be off after you open the throttle again. You will have black puff of smoke coming out of the tailpipe of unburnt fuel because you dumped the air out of BOV . It has not been the problem for me ever except little loss of performance right after you get on it again . I consider it a good trade off for longevity of my stock turbo. Its spinning at mind boggling 225K rpm at full boost so the shock wave coming back at it after you close the throttle plate can't be a good thing. BOV prevents it. It would be better to make it closed loop system but plumbing gets kind off complicated with stock configuration and I'm lazy. Its on my list :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Ok recirculating it is. Being in a buggy throttle response is a must for the fun factor. I'm lucky in the fact the way my stuff is laid out its no big deal to change it around. I have seen on eBay BOVS that have dual outlets to recirculate or closed loop. I'm leaning in this direction if for no other reason than "what if" factor.
Where should I tee in the vacuum line for the BOV?
Thank you Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:14 pm 
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I see the Bovs I thought were selectable to do both atmosphere and recirculate actually do both at once. And the information states that they draw atmospheric air to make a woosh sound.
So I assume I should go with a recirculating only model? Sorry but I almost got it
Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:56 pm 
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Stay away from the Ebay China mass produced BOV,
the seals are cheap and glued in place, they come loose
and cause leaks and can fold up and jam open the valve.

Pay the $ and get a reputable good quality BOV.

I don't know anybody with an MK1 that has a recirculating
system. In the OE setup, there is a vent hose from the
valve cover to the fresh air intake tube pre turbo.
If you try to recirculate the relieved pressure, you then
pressurize the crank case and can blow off your oil cap.
Not to mention any pressure spikes will also travel upstream
and move the vane in the VAF which will affect fueling.


If you don't have this hose in your setup
Attachment:
hose.jpg
hose.jpg [ 301.86 KIB | Viewed 4903 times ]

then you may not have to worry about that, but I have
never had a fueling problem venting to atmosphere.
I believe the MK2 has a different setup, as well as moving
away from the Vane style VAF so these guys may want to
recirculate.

There's a recent brief discussion on BOV here:
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=60023


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:07 pm 
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So listen up, the PCV valve draws in crankcase vapors during
periods of manifold vacuum. When you are under boost, the
PCV slams shut (one way valve here) and the crankcase vapors
are then sucked in through the larger vent hose on top of
valve cover that is plumbed into turbo intake.

That is the purpose of that hose to direct the crankcase vapors
back through the intake during periods of boost, when the PCV
valve is not active.

That is why it is common to see a little bit of oil in the intercooler
and intake hoses post turbo.

If your worried about the dust then get a BOV that has a filter
on the output side.

I really like this one, it is adjustable and has the vacuum for
fast acting operation. When the throttle plate slams shut,
the vacuum helps open the valve to release pressure.

Attachment:
BOV.jpg
BOV.jpg [ 120.76 KIB | Viewed 4903 times ]


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:58 pm 
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JamalSpelling wrote:

I don't know anybody with an MK1 that has a recirculating
system. In the OE setup, there is a vent hose from the
valve cover to the fresh air intake tube pre turbo.
If you try to recirculate the relieved pressure, you then
pressurize the crank case and can blow off your oil cap.
Not to mention any pressure spikes will also travel upstream
and move the vane in the VAF which will affect fueling.




Recirculating BOV air back into the turbo inlet will not affect crank case pressure in any way. All systems will work as factory intended. Properly done , meaning plumbed about a foot closer to the turbo from where that crank case went hose is and pointing straight into turbo inlet there would be no pressure spikes to VAF . Keep in mind turbo is spining 225K at full tilt , i don't think any air coming out of BOV dump tube would make it back to crank case went hose let alone to VAF.
Every manufacturer has closed loop system on their turbo cars and also crank case venting because its the nature of the beast and EPA breading down their necks. No air that goes into the motor and is metered can exit any other way but through the tail pipe and catalytic converter. That includes my 1987 Conquest that was awaken by recirculating BOV air along with all other mods I did.
I may have to get my tools and some mandrel bent tubing , hose and get it done finally on my T3


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:34 pm 
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I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd like to hear from anyone who has a actually
done this on the MK1 setup.

When I tried it, the results were disastrous, albeit I was trying to recirculate
boost in excess of 15psi. I could have tried to route it a little different,
but did not see any benefit and did not previously have any issues with
fueling whatsoever, I simply attempted it because popular opinion on
TS at the time said it was beneficial. I say myth busted.
MK2 and later, probably different story, but there are mechanical
and electronic differences and cannot necessarily compare directly
to MK1.

Whether you're boosting at OE pressure or more, I don't believe the factory
setup was designed to recirculate relieved pressure period on MK1 especially
if you are running stock electronics.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:50 pm 
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I've never heard of anyone either , but I wasn't asking either so I guess I'll have to try it myself. I have the parts just a matter of doing it. We will test it next SoCal Meet :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:23 pm 
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i can get away with dumping the bov to atmosphere on my mk2 g10t largely because the engine is map controlled so metered air is much less a problem.

maf and vaf controlled systems are not able to tightly control injection with an open air bov dump.

i have not seen nor heard of any factory metered air system that didn't suffer fueling errors when using a bov dumping to atmosphere. it's a curse and in general, it makes a car slower.

i have talked with dsm and subaru guys who say that this is common with their cars, too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:05 am 
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I'm seeing different sizes of blowoff valves. Some 19mm,some 20mm,some 25mm.
I'm looking at a GFB 1003 blowoff valve on eBay which can be set to either recirculate or just dump.
It's used and he's asking 100$ I just can't afford to drop 200$ on a new one and figure a used well made one is better than a new Chinese one.
I'm just guessing and looking for a prod in either direction.
Thanks Edd

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:37 am 
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The sizes generally correspond to the mounting flanges.

So it really depends where and how you are going to mount it.

Does it mount with a flange using bolts, or does it use a band clamp.

Are you going to fab your own mount, or buy a prefabbed tube and
splice that in the intake tubes somewhere?

Buying the BOV is only half the fun.

So I bought a cheap BOV and made a quick adaptor to mount it
to the flange that was already plumbed on my setup.
It wasn't pretty, but at the time I just needed it to be functional.
In retrospect, I should have done it the right way the first time,
I spent way too much time trying to fix and modify it and in
the long run it wasn't worth the time I spent, but I was insistent
to work with what I had. The older Blitz valve was wornout and
not working, and all I could afford was the $20 ebay valve,
ultimately it cost me much more. But the point I'm trying to make
is your choice on valves will depend on how your going to mount
it.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:06 am 
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Thank you for the pictures. You surely weld better than I do. I always say I'm a guy with a welder but I'm no welder. I've been told I weld like old people f@&k. Slow and sloppy. Lol. Another forum I go to for the buggy it's self gave me a bunch of shit over how the welds on my pipe looked. I had one bozo tell me to take it to a welder and have them disassemble it and re weld it as it was gonna leak and fall apart. That got my blood boiling. They didn't have much to say when I showed a pic of one weld I ground down which had no voids and perfect penetration. For the record it has not leaked of fallen apart.
The BOV I'm getting is a GFB which switches between closed and atmosphere. That way I can try both ways and post my findings.
I love fabricating anything I can and to be honest that's where I get most of my enjoyment from. turn me loose with a chunk of steel my milling machine and a welder and you won't see me all day. My results may not look professional but at the end of the day I can say "I made that".it almost hurts me to have to pay someone to do something for me.
Thank you to all who have taken the time to share there knowledge with me. You are all appreciated.
Thank you Edd

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:10 am 
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Ha Ha! Me Weld? What a hoot.
I wish. I'm much better at paying people to weld for me.
In this case, it's definately who you know. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:17 pm 
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So my new used blow off valve arrived today and I can not move the piston by hand and when sucking on the vacuume attachment i can't hear a leak but it's not doing anything.
Am I doing something wrong or is someone trying to screw me? Please let me know before I fire off a shitty E mail.
Thanks Edd

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:18 pm 
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Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:17 pm 
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So if I recall correctly....
The vacuum won't necessarily open the valve, it may not be able to overcome
the spring pressure. It only assists in the opening when the set pressure is reached.

The BOV should be adjustable, probably the big chrome knob on the top
turns to adjust spring pressure. The ones I've seen usually have a screw or
bolt with a nut.

So try decreasing the spring tension, then while applying vacuum,
you should be able to move the piston. In some BOV's, you'll have
to switch to a weaker or stronger spring for more adjustment.

I remember it takes a consider amount of thumb pressure to
move the piston. Just make sure it's not seized.

As far as final adjustment, you have to install it and set the tension
so it will release pressure at your desired point. Trial and error,
till you get it set right.

I'm guessing it's set pretty tight, and since your only going for
5-8 psi, you'll have to adjust it.

So let's see..I think I had my boost set at 15psi, so on the bench I
applied 15psi vacuum and adjusted the tension to where the piston
would lift. Then tightened it slightly so it wouldn't open until
slightly more than 15psi , and I had a good boost controller,
so I would ensure release between every shift.

It's been a while, but I think that's right.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:28 pm 
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I think it's seized. I have the tension turned down and can not get it to move at all with a screwdriver handle inserted and applying force against the floor to the screwdriver. There is a Allen bolt on the side I'm gonna pop out and see If I can tell what's going on better.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:34 pm 
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Yep seized up as tight as can be. I got it on EBay so I'll get my money back but for the life of me I don't know why someone would waste there time selling it knowing it's gonna come back. Fing people.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Bummer.

Spend the money and get a good one,
at least a C-note I'm guessing.
You'll be happier in the long run.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:55 am 
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Jamal. I took you're advice on that. I got a Go Fast Bits blowoff that was 300$+ new. Paid 150$ for it used after shipping. I scrapped the bottom of the barrel to get it. Now I'm gonna have to do the whole Monkey dance and wait a few weeks until I actually get the money back in my hands to buy another one.
It's so frustrating for me because I'm a professional seller on EBay and would never ever misrepresent anything to anyone. People who try to pass off there junk on eBay make it harder for legitimate sellers because people are expecting to get ripped off from the git go.
Not much I can do about it except be patient. If I've learned nothing else as I get older it is how to be patient.
Thank you for the set up instructions a few posts up that is exactly what I needed to know about the set up of the blow off.
Ok got the venting out of the way now to let the waiting to begin.
Edd

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:09 am 
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Bad luck :evil:

I despise most Ebay policies and procedures, however they've ramped things
up to favor the buyer should something go wrong.
Be sure to contact the buyer and select item not as described and request
a full refund, that will open a case. Then fire off a polite email to the buyer
to speed things up. If you don't get a satisfactory reply in 24 hours, then
you can contact Ebay customer service to expedite a ruling, or contact
Paypal and freeze the payment but only as a last resort, try to calmly
sort it out with the seller first, it may not have been intentional.
Assuming you bought something with a good return policy and definately
support your claim with pictures.

I sell $150K per year on Ebay, and have been thru this once or twice,
if there's a problem it's usually buyer incompetence, but I've been
known to goof thru human error. Any seller worth their weight will
fix it asap so long as the buyer communicates in a timely and coherent
manner. Hope it works out for you so you can move on and get
a working part.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:02 am 
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I'm familiar with eBay all too well. Been our only profession for 17years. I had a lucrative sales job and the wife was locked in with the State. I started selling when it was 5cents to list an item. We do between 100k and 125k a year.thats down from a few years ago as we only work when we need money. We figure we work about 40 hours a month combined.some times less never more. We would rather have the free time than the money. i sell just about anything but specialize in restaurant/laboratory/medical and manfacturing equipment as well as business buy outs. . I have what people call a man yard. After 17 years of buying stuff I've accumulated quite a collection of off the wall items. Things that were not worth selling or were broken but have unlimited value when I need something funky. The post I just did on the fuel cooler was made with parts from a laboratory water chiller I've had for years. Got a 2000 pound safe sitting at the end of my driveway. . Need an electron microscope? I got two sitting out there and that is not even the tip of the iceberg.any one needs a commercial pizza oven I'm you're man. . guys love my collection of Crap as the wife calls it. Many items I sell off of eBay to save the fees. People don't realize just what it costs to sell on eBay. My monthly bill is about 1k than there's the screwing that PayPal does to you. There policy towards the buyer is almost ridiculous now though. I have yet to figure out how to get anyone to read a description. I always give my buyers the Benafit of the doubt even though everything I sell is as is.
This jackass told me I installed it wrong. Lol.
So I soaked it in wd40 and tapped the piston out. Seems to have sat for some time as it had some corrosion. Took me 2 hours to polish the corrosion off and polish the piston. Works good now and has no leaks.

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