TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 pm

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
Long story short,
Car died on the run,
Everything checks out from Crank Gear Keyway position to ECM and Ignitor.
Fuel and spark, but will not start.

Going crazy trying to diagnose. Grasping at straws here.
Finally thought it could be clogged exhaust, but it would have to be fully clogged.
I wasn't driving it when it conked out.
So it dawned on me to check cranking vacuum on the boost gauge,
of which there is none detected, only a slight flutter of the needle
less than 1" of vacuum reading.

So before I unbolt all the exhaust and get all greasy, just wondering
if someone can give me a normal cranking vacuum reading for reference.
If you have a boost gauge, just yank the ECM fuse or unplug the fuel pump
relay for a good reading.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
JamalSpelling wrote:
Long story short,

So it dawned on me to check cranking vacuum on the boost gauge,
of which there is none detected, only a slight flutter of the needle
less than 1" of vacuum reading.

So before I unbolt all the exhaust and get all greasy, just wondering
if someone can give me a normal cranking vacuum reading for reference.
If you have a boost gauge, just yank the ECM fuse or unplug the fuel pump
relay for a good reading.


OK I disconnected the fuel relay and got a cranking vacuum reading of ~10 psi on my 88 T3.
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
Thank you Sol!

I got maybe around ±1 inHg. (that's plus or minus 1 inches of Mercury)
Anyway the needle barely fluttered.

I had DTM GTI check on this T3 and his cheapo gauge indicated
maybe around 2 or 3, but was hard to tell as it was a small gauge
and the increments on the dial were not very defined.

So Sol gets 10 inHG and I get pretty much zero.
I guess next step is checking the exhaust and compression check.

When it turns over, it's always sounded different, just not as fast.
I thought it was battery issues, and starter issues...
I recently swapped out the starter as previous owner installed
an aftermarket starter that I wasn't sure was correct. That seemed
to help a little.

When this thing runs it's like running on the showroom floor, it's
even got the Factory Cassette Deck. For the life of me, I'm positively
stuck on the no start which I thought for sure had to be an electronic
issue. Now I'm exploring all possibilities of a mechanical issue as
time permits.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:14 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
No start on a MK1 T3 in open loop setting
Interesting.?
Do you know if the cam is spinning.? While starting
Do you have spark.?
Are you getting fuel.? you need 32psi @ the rail ( manually prime it).!

Check:
Fuel pump relay
Distributor..... The tanges between dizzy and cam & connector to engine harness (two little wires) look under cap
Starter switch wiring
Voltage to ECM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
I've checked everything, this is a stumper.

It went through 2 ignitors in 3 months, but had replaced them with
used parts. Then one day it ran fine, then died on the run and
here we are today.

Code was 41 (no coil signal), but I suspect the code was still
in there from the last time I replaced the ignitor.

1)Verified Fuel Pump (audible humm), pressure around 30psi, plugs wet

2)Verified spark while cranking with spark checker, visually checked
cap & rotor, and plugs (also swapped in known good distributor and
new test coil as well as check coil resistance and voltage signal)

3)Verified ECM and Ignitor operation by trying them in another car

4)Checked proper ECM voltage, start signal voltage and coil signal

5)Visually inspected grounds on surge tank side and fender wells, as well
as tested grounds at ECM coupler and Ignitor connector.

6)Checked fusible links

7)Checked for sticky flapper valve in the VAF

8 ) Inspected timing marks and woodruff key on crank pulley

9)Filled the fuel tank till it overflowed

So I've got spark and fuel, but engine will not start.

I did a vacuum test while cranking and got near zero readings.


At this point I'm going to pull the valve cover off for a visual
inspection, do a compression check and check the exhaust.

It just dawned on me while typing, that I remember not that the
tach needle used to flutter intermittently and I never diagnosed it,
I suppose since I'm grasping at straws here that I could swap out
the tach console and see if that's maybe the issue.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:28 am 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
Starter switch.?
The white hard plastic piece on the backside of the mechanical Key switch
the wiring in there was not too well made This has bit me a time or two on both Turbo & N/A sprints

(picture on the board behind the flashlight just right of the turbo gasket's below the TurbineTech frnt brace)
.
Also Change out your
Spark Plugs and re gap (40mm) Idc how old they are.!
Plugs will leak & lead to intermittent/weak spark
I've had brand new Spark Plugs That looked and smelled good LEAK
.
and then if your issue still there........... stab a spare dizzy in it
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...
.
Image
.
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 87
Location: AZ
JamalSpelling wrote:

So Sol gets 10 inHG and I get pretty much zero.
I guess next step is checking the exhaust and compression check.

.


Ooops I meant 10 in HG, not psi & I checked it with the engine warm. Wondering if your IAC valve may be malfunctioning/sticking?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
Ignition switch checks out, and flows according to the continuity chart.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:16 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
JamalSpelling wrote:
Ignition switch checks out, and flows according to the continuity chart.

Image

.

.
.
I just don't think your picking up what I'm laying down....
.
so I will stop the noise and wish you good luck while learking from the side
.
....jv&s
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
No man, I gotcha. Appreciate the input.
Didn't complete the last post..

Yup, checked the connectors
Image


Image

So you're saying the connectors might not be flowing the electrons through,
so I checked for continuity through the male/female connection.
Then disconnected and checked the switch itself for proper operation.
Image

The switch checks out according to the flowchart, and no resistance through the connector.

Good idea, something I had not checked, but now time to rule it out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:26 am 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
that's not the igintion wire I was talking about...... But you checked it and Cleaned it and that is good
( I will post pic when i get at it later) shit is happening and have to put out personal fires
.
Image
.
Image
.
Ok Because i like you...... Would like to tell you a story......
I have a car ( Yes that car I can't stop yap'n about it)
the PO said he put a new starter on(good on him) didn't ask why
long story short....
I drive this car for 3 month not a miss hot cold wet What ever just run.

Then wont start sometime sometimes it will..... Hot cold what ever
Crank,Crank,Crank,
check it out all looks good.? Checked all the wiring/conectors ignition/starter. all of it
Put new battery.? Why.?
still run sometimes start sometimes, sometimes not.
Crank,Crank,Crank,
Doesn't care what time day or night.

I get to the point were I've had enough That's it...
I'm a going to replace every wire in that car till it's all new

First wire..... Ignition to Starter Solenoid........ brown wire 18g maybe 20g looks good smells good take it out..
test...voltage in voltage out

New wire 16g
(see what I did there).?
Crank,Crank, bangs run's Crank,Crank, Run's
and Now starts run's every frig'n time

Now.....
Resistance in the wire not allowing it to crank just fast enough to start.?
Why.?
How could it happen.?
Stock wiring should be good to go right.?
I tested it it tested ok.! but was not good enough to crank it fast enough
.
If it looks like a duck walks like a duck..?
.
sometimes it the simple thing that trip you up .......... stay with it you'll get it.......jv&s
.

.

.
.
.
.
.
I've had this issue before and probably will again

.
Image
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
Hmmm..Yeah start signal is ok at STA on ECM while cranking.

This signal is only used to compensate fuel supply during start,
so maybe only would affect hard starting and not no start?
But the FSM gives a broad range of voltage spec 10-14V
so seems like a lot of tolerance.

Most of my others crank fast, but fire up quick. I never get to
crank them much because they are starting right away.
I would think replacing the wire like you did would give a better
signal to the ECM, as far as cranking speed that shouldn't be related
as the small wire only controls the larger switch (solenoid)
which flows the amps through the POS cable to starter motor.
Crank speed would be resistance in pos cable, motor, ground
or engine condition, compression, timing etc.

I tried several times using a remote starter switch which bypasses
key start position anyway. But you give me another good idea anyway
I can run some piggyback jumper wires from solenoid to key switch
and see if it makes a difference.

OH Yeah, most important, I was finally able to find Waldo
behind the timing cover, between the hood scoops.

Attachment:
WALDO.jpg
WALDO.jpg [ 219.02 KIB | Viewed 2583 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:09 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
Wrong "Said waldo" is just above the blue tape ( I had to look again)
.
I wish more peeps would chime in on this topic Maybe I tainted the post.?
.
.

.
look who got pictures.?
.
these are the plastic pieces I was talking about Both have failed
one you can clearly see the starter wire fell off
the other failed inside Ignition wire...It would crank would not start
.
Just saying....
.
.

.
Image
.
Image
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:10 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: So Cal, USA
Yup, that pic gets to the point.

The continuity test should diagnose the part as good or bad.

But since I got a twin parked right beside her,
we're gonna swap the part to see what happens.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group