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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:27 am 
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So I checked my timing today and it was firing about 3" prior to the timing tab.
Thought I may have slipped the timing belt. Timing cover removed and inspected the belt. Looked good. With the timing mark lined up the distributer was pointing to cylinder one.
Long story short. When the timing belt marks on the crank and cam were lined up it was NOT on the compression stroke for cylinder one. On the compression stroke it was pointing directly across from cylinder one.
How can this be you may ask. When I rebuilt my distributer I must of clocked it wrong and used it to line up my engine for timing..
So now I've lined up the timing belt marks on the compression stroke and reclocked the distributer.
When I crank it it backfires. I'm assuming I need to readjust the valves as they were adjusted with the engine not at the correct dead center.
Is any of this making any sense because It seems crazy to me.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:40 am 
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The distributor was on correctly the first time.
When you rebuilt it, you put the tangs on properly.
The distributor lines up exactly opposite the #1 spark plug wire when the timing mark is at TDC.

You're overthinking things.

Put it back together the way you had it originally and the miracle of motion will be yours again.

Trust me.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:49 am 
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I trust you 100%. But just have a hard time wrapping my head around it. So on the compression stroke that lines up the timing marks the rotor will point across from the number one wire in the cap?
So now I'm trying to figure out why it is so off in the timing area. I replaced the advance springs and now I'm wondering if they are too week letting the dist advance when it shouldn't. It's a good 3" off the tab.
Thank you Edd

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:51 am 
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When lining up the marks for the timing belt should it be on the compression stroke or dose it make no difference?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:52 pm 
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The advance springs were trash. I had to make two and that brought my timing down to just before the timing tab. I'm guessing I need to make some more just a little shorter. I bought some a few months ago that seemed like a good match and now I've misplaced them.
Thank you for saving me from myself. I guess it's better to over think than not think at all. I seem to go from one extreme to the other.
Thanks again Edd

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:00 pm 
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To help you wrap your mind around it all:

The camshaft gear is twice as big as the crankshaft gear.
So it turns half as fast as the one on the bottom.

(Here we pause and reflect on the wisdom of the past.)

There are MANY threads about the exact same thing as you've originally posted here.
So don't feel like the lone stranger.
The problem is, people act on what they're thinking and totally screw up a perfectly good running engine.
Fortunately, you caught yourself in time.

Regarding your distributor springs:

The original Chevrolet Sprint was designed by a guy in Florida.
He took a Chevy small block V6 and cut off one bank, teaked a bunch of settings and came up with the design which was eventually built by Suzuki.
The Moderator who sold you the camshaft has a LOT more inside information on it than me.
Thus, the Chevy distributors of old will be your best friend when searching for replacement springs if you can't find OEM.
Here, a little history lesson goes a long way in helping you find compatible parts.

For the thread, and as a way to show your 'thanks' as mentioned above:
What timing are you trying to achieve?
You mention 3 degrees, right?
Is there some actual number or is 3 degrees a relative number, as in 3 degrees 'off' vs. 3 degrees BTDC?

Last:
Here, I'm talking about ignition timing, and not valve to crankshaft timing.
You see how someone trying to help can get into a whole can of worms trying to help.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:39 pm 
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the upper shaft of the dist will mount 180 degrees out i did it the first time i rebuilt my dist remove the upper shaft and reinstall it 180 degrees

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:59 pm 
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Quote:
When lining up the marks for the timing belt should it be on the compression stroke or dose it make no difference?


It makes no difference. After installing, you rotate the assembly (crankshaft 2 rotations,camshaft 1 rotation) to ensure
proper tension and re-check the marks. You do have the correct OE timing cover I assume?
Did you deck the block or shave the head perhaps? If the grommets on the camshaft pulley backing plate are
worn or missing, it can shift and throw off the top mark.

You need to check the rotor position when you adjust your valves to make sure it's on the correct stroke.

You should get yourself a Factory Service Manual and turbo supplement, they are invaluable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sbc-Bbc-Distributor-HEI-Advance-Curve-Kit-Chevy-350-383-305-283-/191517144429?hash=item2c974fb56d&vxp=mtr

Our distributors have a dual vacuum diaphram for advancing and retarding under boost.
When you check the base timing you should have the vacuum lines disconnected and plugged.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:15 am 
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I understand helping someone can open a can of worms as a simple issue may be way more involved than you first thought and now u feel committed.
Every thank you I put out there is sincere and everyone is greatly appreciated. You guys don't have to help me but you do.
I did the same thing when I first rebuilt the distributer and had to spin the rotor post as well.
Previously I was running it at 12 degrees advanced. It's not at 3 degrees advanced it was triggering the timing light 3" befor the timing tab. After doing the springs it's about an half inch from the timing tab.i was able to bring that down a little more but the engine ran smoother there. I pinched the vacuume advance hoses when setting the timing. Once I un pinched the hoses it went up to about an inch past the timing tab.
I'd guess 22 degrees advanced. the timing cover is aftermarket the timing tab on it is off a little. It shows 2 degrees advanced when at TDC.
The springs I had in the dist looked similar but one was weaker and stretched out. You could feel ( very obviously) the tension difference. My rotor post loosened up on me a few times and I now believe this was caused by the uneven springs throwing off the balance inside.
My valve adjustment has me worried a little. I can't for the life of me reamber if I used the distributer as reference for TDC which I would have used the rotor pointing at cylinder one which I now know is wrong.
I'm about to load it up and go beat on it for a few hours today but will check and adjust the valves tomorrow ( I can pull the timing cover in 20 minutes but the trade off is it takes me about an hour just to get the valve cover off) and shorten the advance springs until I can find the ones I got for it. I found some on eBay that were custom made for a ford thunderbird I believe and they looked almost identical to the stock one I had to compaire it to,now just to figure out where they are.
When I get into it tomorrow to do the valves I'll let you guys know what I find.

As a side note I had a previous post reguarding vacuume which is now between 15 and 17. It was at 20lbs before my rebuild. If I recall correctly valve timing being off can effect the vacuume but I'm thinking it may be caused by the cam as I had a Chevy 350 with a big cam (310 lift if I recall correctly)
and it robbed me of vacuume and I had to run a vacuume canister for the power brakes. This may be irrelevant but I rather give too much info as I'm not sure what's important here.

You know it's coming,,,,wait for it,,,,here it is,,,
Thank you
Edd

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:24 am 
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Jamal. The head and block have not been shaved. I replaced the grommets on the timing cover during my rebuild .I have two manuals but sometimes I just need that human input. Truth be told I guess I don't utilize them as much as I should. I think I second guess myself too much to rely on my interpretation alone.
Thank you.
Edd

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:59 am 
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Let me correct myself. I do not think the head was shaved. I took it in to have the valve seats cleaned up and I didnt ask for it to be shaved so I'm guessing not. Should I call them and see its that is something they automatically do?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:38 am 
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I was just thinking of the one rebuild I did where I had to run it 30* advanced to this day and
did not solve the problem, though may have had the deck blocked and head shaved.
Bringing the crank and cam pulleys closer together I suspect was the issue.
I need to try advance the cam pulley one tooth I guess to compensate and see
if I can get it to run good around 12*. This one had a freshly rebuilt distributor
from Fainya and thought that might be it, but I swapped out several distributors
and they all needed to be run extremely advanced.

I would start by getting a factory timing cover if not just for the timing marks alone.

If you have the Factory manual and supplement that's the best, the chilton's and hayne's
just plain suck. I have fingerprints on every page and used to sleep with them under my pillow.
Every now and then, I reread the sections when I'm looking for something and come across
some bit and think Hmmm.. I never knew that! (but I've only read it a bazillian times already)

Well it only takes us 5 minutes to get the valve cover off, you got a complicated setup
there son. :wink:

I certainly don't feel committed to help anybody, this is more about the fun and modifications.
I suppose some of the post replies feel like they deserve some sort of response, but you don't
owe me nuthin'..We all know you appreciate our help and you've earned our respect.
When I first joined up there were plenty of dicks busting my nutts, but that's true with any online forum,
not so much here, the Mini Cooper forum was God Awful and the BMX forums were just ridiculous.
I joined up here out of necessity at the time and it paid off well.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:33 am 
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Chilton and Haynes are what I have. Between the two they almost make a manual. I never thought of the factory service manual. I did down load the turbo supplement though.
Took it out yesterday and it did ok. I didn't beat on it Incase my valves were off. I'm getting some surging on light throttle which I am thinking is a vacuum leak but as of now I can't find it. Only after it's been run for a while and parked for a few minutes will it do it
The valve cover is smack in the middle of everything on my set up. Turns out it is an hour and a half job but I drag my ass.
I must have initially done the valves when the timing belt marks were lined up as they were pretty good. A couple were just a tad loose but not much. I went ahead and retorqued my head bolts. I have about 10 hours on it but most of those are running balls out so I figured it wouldent hurt.
Took me this long to get in here I figured I check everything while I could get to it.

Pulled my injectors as I changed the fuel filter and thought I may have gotten crap in them and sure enough I got some trash out of injector 1 and 2 which I was expecting. What I wasn't expecting was the number two injector harness plug had water in it. Not a little either.

I'm wondering if that could have been causing a little miss which has resurfaced or the surging I get.
Now on to the tips. Adjusted all of the way counter clockwise the lowest reading I could get is .17volts and the highest I could get is 3.48 volts.
I have an extra laying around that came with the buggy and the lowest reading was .18volts and the highest was 3.51 volts.
So I'm guessing it's bad. Now I'm thinking that may have been causing my surging.
If it's bad I have a new set of Victor Reinz turbo gaskets I'd trade if one of you guys could part with one or cash.
I'm intrested in any thoughts you guys may have
Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:41 am 
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As far as attitude on other forums I know what you mean. The forum I visit for my buggy is like that. Just a bunch of fools stroking there own egos which is why I'm so appreciative of this forum and its members.
Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:27 pm 
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If the TPS is off you typically get surging/bucking/jerking at that point
where there is no throttle to light throttle, like creeping in stop and go traffic.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:15 pm 
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That sounds like what I'm getting. Power no power,power no power,power no power. I just immedietly thought vacuum leak.
I'm assuming any type of home remedy is out of the question?
How about the water in the injector harness plug? Do I need to worry about any ill effects on the injector?
Thanks Edd

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:30 pm 
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If I had a manual transmission it would be bucking.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:17 am 
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The Turbo Supplement should cover the TPS adjustment, LMK if you need a copy of this
procedure. It is a precise procedure using feeler gauges and covers testing as well.

Try some dielectric grease on your connectors, it will keep the water out.

If you're concerned about your injectors, a reputable injector shop should be
able to flow test and rebuild them for around $100.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:18 am 
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I have read about using the feeler gauges to set it. I also found a post that suggested using a multi meter and setting it to zero volts when the throttle is closed. I've been using the multi meter method,should I not?
I will use some dialectic grease I Hadent thought of that. I did pull back the rubber boots on the harness plug and use silacone to seal them.
I'll see how the injectors do,they are new with about 20 hours on them so hopefully cleaning out the screens will do but I will keep an open mind.
What happened is I installed a spin on type of filter assembly and new hoses. I cleaned everything as good as I could but just to be safe in installed a inline filter right before the fuel rail. Of course I didn't know to use a high pressure filter and it blew apart inside allowing trash into the rail.
Seems most issues I some how cause myself. I can admit it.
Thank you Edd

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:52 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Thank you. That is priceless. Guess I was doing that wrong also.
Armed with the correct technique I will get right on it and report how it turns out.
Thank you
Edd

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:27 am 
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Ok. Out here now checking it out and I was able to set one of my tps's with the feeler gauges. The other was too twitchy to get to hold its reading.
The ohms on the one I could set was 6.6 but I have no connituity between the other pins on either tps.
Seems odd they would both have nothing but cant get much more simple let than a continuity test so I'm confident I didn't do that wrong.
I found a used one on eBay for 30$ shipped and guaranteed . It should be here by Friday. Would have rather new but it was either used now or new in a few weeks.
Thank you so much for the easy layout of the manual pages. It helped me a bunch.
I'll keep you up to date
Thank you Edd

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:40 am 
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Got the new used tps today and got it installed. Won't have a chance until Saturday to see if it fixed my surging but I have no doubt it will.
In keeping with my record of fixing one thing after another I'm thinking my alternator may be causing idle issues but will post a new question reguarding that.
Thank you for all the help Jamal.
Edd

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