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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:17 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
I just bot this car, the deal was without hearing engine run.

Some Background: (using CODE in place of indent)

Code:
The car was garaged in 2000 with 3/4 tank of gas.  Then 3-5 years ago, it was driven and parked in the grass along the driveway.  Car has 121k on it.  Car was taken care of.  Body metal and paint is crazy nice and interior in pretty decent shape.  Dash and Headliner are excellent.

I'm new to the turbos and don't have a FSM (need to get one obviously).

The car has mouse nests just about everywhere you can think of.  And behind a tail light, they ate the insulation off a wire but did not break the copper wires.  Obviously, this could be quite a problem.


All the documentation including the window sticker was in the glove box and they all have varying degree of brown dried mouse urine all over them. So yes, I have an owner's manual which should show me where the fuse is, but I've been working 12 hours today clean mold and mouse shit and I'm running out of gas!

Some questions:

1) Does the pump run when Key ON?
2) Do I only need to check Fuse and Relay? Or are there other components in the circuit?
3) There are two relays on the RH shock tower. Which one is the Fuel Pump? Read something about a Pink Wire???

And if there are common failure modes or not (like relays rarely go bad), I could use that information.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

EDIT: I just looked up a pump @ RockAuto and they have a Delphi for $50. From what I've heard, they are one of the best quality wise. But looking at the pump, it doesn't look like an in-tank pump which I assumed. Need to look into this more....

EDIT.2: I quickly looked at the fuse box and other fuses/links in the mouse piss reeking Owner's Manual and I saw nothing for the Fuel Pump. In fact, I didn't really see anything in that manual for the Turbo model. The title of the OM was simply Sprint. (It is possible I missed the Turbo stuff - like I said, I couldn't bear to touch the damn thing.)

QUESTION: Which fuse (or fusible link) is for the Fuel Pump?

Also, I just order the 87 Sprint FSM and the electrical book on eBarf. (I can't imagine a World w/o eBarf.) Oh, and I hope the Turbo stuff is in this FSM and that there is not a Turbo FSM.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:28 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
Clean up all your grounds first. I had this issue a few times and it was always bad ground even if it looks good sand or wire brush it and reinstall


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:37 am 
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Location: London, ON
There is a Mk1 Turbo Supplement on here. An electronic copy may very well be in my possession, I just don't have time to check at the moment. You should be able to find the link if you use the search. 8)

Edit: about 20 articles down.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:40 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
Wow, got he Turbo Supplement.

I guess technically I didn't need to get the Sprint Shop Manual - turns out I was correct and there is no Turbo section in the FSM. However, the car is a Sprint and I should have the FSM.

I wonder how hard it is to find the actual Supplement? I'll bet it goes for a premium.

Already read the the check fuel pump diagnostics and listening for the pump relay to click off in 4 seconds is so obvious, but I sure didn't think of it. Probably widely know "trick" for EFI diagnosis.

Well I'm on my way. Thanks for the link!

EDIT: :WTF: The Wiring Diagram has to be the Worst Wiring Diagram in the All The Known And Unknown Universes ...to start with! :thwack: I might be OCD'd to work on it. Colors would be a help.

Is there another version of the Wiring Diagram out there?


EDIT.2: :idea: Thinking about that wiring diagram with the packed parallel lines. One simple solution would be to stretch the image to separate those lines. Yes, the figures would be distorted, but there would be separation in those lines so they could be highlighted, traced, etc. I haven't tried to magnify the image to span across Portrait sheets, but spanning across Portrait legal pages might just be enough. (I don't know if I have a printer that will print on legal paper.)

Of course, I just order another complete shop manual w/supplement on eBarf. Looks like I'll have doubles.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Location: columbus, ohio
i use a straight edge to follow the lines on those schematics. the wire colors are given at the connection points.

and i'd way more rather use the older line schematics than the later pictorial schematics. i was an electrical engineer for more than 30 years and i prefer a real schematic wiring diagram over the single circuit pictorial drawings that gm used.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:39 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
I like both types of diagrams, since they serve different purposes. The newer GM style diagrams seem focused on explaining wiring layout and connector locations, whereas the older style manuals from Suzuki (as T3 points out) use proper electrical schematic and proper symbols, which emphasize an explanation of each electrical circuit function.

What are the benefits of a true schematic vs. a wiring layout diagram? Example: A turn signal circuit will include in one diagram, all the components needed to explain the turn signal function, and would, for example, include a ground symbol. In contrast, a wiring layout diagram may require you to trace unmarked black lines back to one or more junction block, possibly on another page, which would then be marked with a single ground label.

My favorite FSM manual is for my Opel GT. It has a giant map like foldout page printed in full color, with a silhouette of the car body and all color coded wires shown, just like an electrical circulatory system for each component. Of course, this car uses a simple electrical system, with a carburetor, mechanical fuel pump, and point ignition system.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:31 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
I just did the "wait 4 sec" for the pump relay to click off and I'm pretty sure I can hear it.

I believe the next step is to jump the relay just to be sure.

EDIT: Also couldn't find the Turbo Fuse Box and other Links in the Supplement. What fuse or link powers the fuel pump?

EDIT.2: Did the jumper test. Got a pretty strong spark and no pump noise. I suspect pump is stuck.

QUESTION: Getting to pump connector under rear seat, I speculate that applying reverse polarity might break it free. And then repeated cycles of polarity switch.

QUESTION 2: If this fails, might as well try an 18v Dewalt battery on it. It's just a permanent magnet motor and short over voltages should not be that destructive. Since if the pump fails to run with voltage applied directly to its connector, precluding mouse wire damage, there isn't much to lose.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
... I suspect pump is stuck.

QUESTION: Getting to pump connector under rear seat, I speculate that applying reverse polarity might break it free. And then repeated cycles of polarity switch.

QUESTION 2: If this fails, might as well try an 18v Dewalt battery on it. It's just a permanent magnet motor and short over voltages should not be that destructive. Since if the pump fails to run with voltage applied directly to its connector, precluding mouse wire damage, there isn't much to lose.


If the fuel pump motor is indeed seized due to gasoline varnish and has been stuck like that for months or years, reversing polarity or using higher voltage will not do anything for a stalled electric motor except to generate heat. Even if it does spin, it will not last very long before it locks up again. Do yourself a favour and plan to drain, and then remove the tank, replace the fuel pump and pump intake screen, and properly dispose of the stale gasoline, as well as to replace the external fuel filter, clean or replace any corroded fuel lines and/or rubber lines, as well as worn clamps.

(PS: also make sure to verify that any wires identified as for the fuel pump +12V or ground, are not for the fuel gauge sending unit. Consult your FSM)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:03 pm 
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suzukitom wrote:
Quote:
... I suspect pump is stuck.

QUESTION: Getting to pump connector under rear seat, I speculate that applying reverse polarity might break it free. And then repeated cycles of polarity switch.

QUESTION 2: If this fails, might as well try an 18v Dewalt battery on it. It's just a permanent magnet motor and short over voltages should not be that destructive. Since if the pump fails to run with voltage applied directly to its connector, precluding mouse wire damage, there isn't much to lose.


If the fuel pump motor is indeed seized due to gasoline varnish and has been stuck like that for months or years, reversing polarity or using higher voltage will not do anything for a stalled electric motor except to generate heat. Even if it does spin, it will not last very long before it locks up again. Do yourself a favour and plan to drain, and then remove the tank, replace the fuel pump and pump intake screen, and properly dispose of the stale gasoline, as well as to replace the external fuel filter, clean or replace any corroded fuel lines and/or rubber lines, as well as worn clamps.


:goodpost:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
QUESTION: Is the OE pump a rotary vane type?

Back to my situation: I have one objective: determine if the engine is OK.

I bot this car without hearing it run with the gamble that the engine is runable - I simply do not have the time or space to deal with another major project. (I have just "recovered" from a 1.5 year 1974 Datsun 620 project that was supposed to take 1.5 months - so I am way, way behind on other tasks.)

A) If the engine is OK, I'd start driving it right away and proceed to correct all the minor defects with this car.

B) If the car ran but the engine was low compression and/or burned oil, I would simply enjoy the car and just keep putting oil and plugs in it.

C) If the engine is toast, well... I don't want to think about the implications of that...




The polarity bumping may get the fuel restore in short order so I can continue evaluating the engine and controls. Since the pump could be barely stuck or hopelessly stuck, I'm compelled to try this.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:18 am 
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It is a not a roller vane. It is a simple DC brush motor/turbine style pump. Gas enters the inlet, and a plastic impeller spun by the pump motor draws fuel into and through the motor housing under pressure to the outlet.

Bear in mind that If you insist on trying to get a likely seized pump to deliver contaminated fuel to your engine, just to verify that it runs.. you may succeed in getting it to run for a few seconds but end up creating more problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:08 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
I already had the hose off the injector rail. So I think it would be a good idea to run some tubing into a jug when I try to free the electric pump. The worst that could happen is clog the filter which I should replace anyway.

Hot happy to hear its a turbine pump because how would you "stick" a pump where nothing touches the impeller and the only thing touching the shaft are the bearings.

I failed to get a siphon hose down the filler - either too many bends and/or anti-theft baffles.

I assume there is no drain plug on the tank.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:27 pm 
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My gti pump failed as the varnish basically fused the motor plain sleeve bearings to the armature shaft. The moving parts of the motor are immersed in fuel.

No tank drain. Usually drain via fuel hose to filter. It can take a while if you have a full tank.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:28 am 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
you can do a compression test, to give you a rough idea how the engine is.....150 psi minimum, but I have had them run fine on numbers lower than that- just not lots of power/ fuel economy.
IF you do get the pump unstuck, don't expect it to last very long, or run very well.
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this car ran with this crappy pump and tank, but when it got below 1/2 tank I had drivability issues....new pump and tank, no more issues.

_________________
89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:48 pm 
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Posts: 148
Location: Pennsylvania
Evap-O-Rust chelates rust away and leaves metal chemically untouched. That rusty tank bottom would have been transformed into a new one with EOR.

Someone said to drain from the filter, but the turbo filter is on the firewall while "Metro" filter location is inside the LR wheel by the tank.

So how big a PITA is dropping the tank? Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and do it. Of course a Sprint with 3/4 tank of gas is NOT like a 24 gallon tank 3/4 full. I meant its like about 5 gallons in the tank. I have a floor jack with a transmission cradle for it so I could lower that tank easily.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to get it up on stands and see what the underneath really looks like.

...and then there is the brakes issue - the pedal goes to the floor.

I'll have to work on that big Rock Auto order.

NOTE: Plastic fuel filters: Hastings makes ones with clear plastic - the ONLY way to go since you can see what just came out of your tank.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:38 pm 
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If the tank is nearly empty, clamping off rubber fuel line(s) near the tank where rubber hoses are clamped to metal fuel lines may allow for easier removal.

Clamps look like this:
http://www.amazon.ca/Lisle-22850-Hose-Pincher/dp/B0002NYB78

Don't use plastic fuel filters designed for mechanical fuel pumps. They are not designed for the higher fuel pressures used by fuel injected engines. Unless you like the idea of extinguishing an engine compartment fire. =)

See also thread below with lots of 87 turbo sprint detailed info from Teamswift member JamalSpelling.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47916&start=25


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:51 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
Pulled the plugs. Not too bad - nowhere near as bad as the plugs out of my 91 Metro.

But what is it about cyl #3? I have (2) G10's now and #3 is the oily one.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:43 am 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
that fuel tank was beyond repair- the baffle around the pump was rusted off. I know that there are products to repair fuel tanks, but it wasn't worth my time. 5 hoses, 4 bolts, 2 wires and 15 minutes and its out :wink:

_________________
89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
Evaporust is a wonderful rust removal product. It will highlight the gasoline as it streams through the spotlessly clean pinholes in a newly de-rusted 28 year old gas tank.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania
STATUS 12-23-2015:

Pump stuck after trying rev polarity etc.

Dropped tank. Outside was perfect, inside had incredible amount of rust muck in the bottom.

Removed fuel pump (took 15 min to figure out how to get it out of the opening), ultrasonically cleaned with water and then Evap-O-Rust, did Rev Pol @ 12v. Pump came loose after about 10 min of ultrasonic cleaning. Runs very smooth. EOR'd the entire pump/sending assembly.

NOTE: when I had the pump out, I did the Rev Pol and it just moved about a "click's worth" in each direction, but there was enough torque developed to rock the pump. It was definitely not the motor. Evidently there is a coupling and the impeller was what was stuck. As it freed up. Some debris actually got into the brushes and had to tap the housing to get it to work again. Ultrasonically cleaning with EOR should have eliminated all the crud that was in there.

4000 psi pressure washed the tank. Amazing how insignificant the rust damage to the interior considering the "scale" of the scale. However, top of the tank has big, rust you can crumble with your fingers.

Going to put some chain and whatever into tank, strap on to my cement mixer and give it a good tumble.

Then plan to use a rust converter - the type that turns the rust black (iron oxide to phosphate).

And that will be it.

Would like to find more Ospho (I'm just about out) but it looks like Krud Kutter by RustEx might be a good product and only $25 a gallon. I have a lead that local paint supply house has Ospho.

Of course, when I get "into it," it's late at night or the weekend, or... Xmas is about the biggest road block possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:40 am 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
''por 15'' makes a product for rusty gas tank interiors.. another one is '' kbs coatings''. I have used the latter one on the outside of fuel tanks. damn good stuff. not cheap, but works great. lots of prep work involved, but that is what makes that stuff work, and last a long time. degrease, acid etch, then paint.
kbs brand degreaser/ acid etch is water based. degreaser leaves no residue behind, the etch leaves a zinc phosphorous film on the surface to promote adhesion of the paint, plus stops rust if you don't get to painting it right away.
there are a few options out there.

_________________
89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:45 am 
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Posts: 148
Location: Pennsylvania
I've been an avid fan of Bill Hirsch's "yellow" gas tank sealer. Used it a few times and never had any issues with it. It never gets hard.

However, it is not alcohol proof yet I'm not having any problems with it in a 63 Studebaker I still have that I used it in.

Alcohol proof sealers seem to be of two varieties: epoxy and polyurethane, both of which get hard or "fairly hard." They all appear to suffer from the fact that they require a very thorough surface prep to keep them from peeling off un-rusted metal. (I've seen POR15 that was used 10-20 years ago on exterior floor board seams that had surface rust. It's grip on rust is incredible, but it would peel from shiny metal. While it could be due to surface prep, a very meticulous restorer friend of mine used POR15 on a frame that was not rusty and had it peel off. Neither of us will touch POR15. NOTE: read a number of adhesion failures if acid etched before using POR15 - that was final nail in the coffin for me. )

Hirsch says his stuff is different and is not like that and I've heard there are others out there that claim the same thing, but I'm hesitant to try any of them since they are all basically a hardening type of paint.

Since I'm not dealing with leaking issues (which is what these products are really good for), I'm just not going to use any of them.

Trust me, I've given it a lot of thought because if something goes wrong, well, that is not an option.
_________________

I've pretty much decided to tumble the tank on a cement mixer and use a "bucket of Pea Gravel" as an abrasive. Concept is to mimic an abrasive tumbler. (Turns out this method is quite popular with the "farm guys." They strap tanks onto a rear tractor wheel and drive around for a couple hours.) I'll have to make a plate to cover the hole and am concerned that I don't damage the ends of the OE mounting screws if they protrude past the nut plate.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:28 am 
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Location: Pennsylvania
UPDATE:

Finished cement mixer tumbling with pea-gravel with excellent results.

However, while there was a lot of loose rust to knock loose, I could have tumbled with a gallon of Evap-O-Rust and avoided the "cleaning the rock dust out" step.

Then I'm going to tumble with either EOR or OSPHO. I'm thinking OSPHO might be better because the converted rust (iron phosphate) is actually a protective barrier while EOR does leave metal in a somewhat reactive state.

Great way to spend Xmas eve and day, huh...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:01 am 
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Posts: 148
Location: Pennsylvania
UPDATE:

Fuel pump, tank in, engine started for first time since buying car. Everything seems OK.

Need to find out what Turbo cranking compression is. I'm assuming it is not the 199# of a stock engine since Turbo is lower compression.


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